Well..Its time for Usa to leave Iraq now

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 30, 2004, 05:08 PM

Usa has fucked up for good in Iraq and unfortunaltly it is irreparable.

Get out of there and leave this to the UN.

You are obviously not capable of handling this.

What happens on these videos are not terrorist propaganda.

It is systematic torture carried out by Us military.

You cant handle it.

Thats it.

The British can...but Usa can not.

How come?

Another thing...How can anyone be so bloody dumb that they use Saddam Husseins torture centre as prison?

Its like if the allies would have used Aushwitz or Treblinka as prison in Germany..So unbelievably moronic.

It will be ...very intertsteing to see what the puniushments the responsable for this will be.

It will also be very intersting to see if those in superior position will even be charged.

Credibility ..messed up for good.

If Bush had...one tiny little chance for a second period.....then that tiny little chance....is gone.

Bluelight

UnIcOrN · Apr 30, 2004, 05:36 PM

Well said Bluelight.. I agree with you on this..

digerati · Apr 30, 2004, 07:02 PM

This truly is a horrible site to see. Buuuuut.

The article says it was a prison, so I take it that it was.

And maybe they should have used Auschwitz as a prison, let the germans get a taste of what they did. Let us not forget it was a U.S. general that started making the locals walk through the concentration camps to see the monstrocities.

From what I understand, the army was already punishing these people right? At least give them credit for not just ignoring what the troops were doing and taking action against them.

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 30, 2004, 09:21 PM

There is no ..Buuut...in this thing.Im sorry.

The allies should have used Auschwitz as prison for the Germans?

As a lesson in how democracy work i take it?

No man...they have messed up and unfortunatley those really responsable for this....not the pissheads on the videos......the ones that taught and instructed the morons....will most likely never be charrged for the crimes.

A good lesson for Iraq in how the free world works.

Give the army credit?For what?

They cant handle Iraq.

The Brits do it better.

Bluelight

drakesteakn · Apr 30, 2004, 09:30 PM

if the brits do better, then u can have iraq, Americans hate being in Iraq cuz we do most of the work. We Americans are the ones fighting the insurgants not the brits.

Americans can't always do everything by themselves. Send more troops over to Iraq if u can do better, we need more troops. not people crying over Iraq, get up and do something not just sit and watch.

giving up won't help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zerodamage · Apr 30, 2004, 09:45 PM

Bluelight, this isn't some huge scandal. This was discovered by the US Millitary and as you can see, this is being handled. Punishment has been delt out or soon will be.

UnIcOrN · Apr 30, 2004, 10:11 PM

They wouldn't be in this mess if the Americans told the truth about there reason of attacking Iraq.. And don't start that BS of Saddam and Osama being secretly working together. They can't stand each other.. One was a dictator and the other is a TERRORIST.
In a way we are all terrorist by occupying a different country, and i mean everyone not only the Americans. In their eyes the West are terrorist's, in (y)our eyes they are.

It is better if the UN takes over.. cause the US are seen as occupiers instead of liberators even though Bush thinks they are.. Instead of looking through your eyes, see it from there point of view.. They didn't ask for this, but they have to live with it day after day.
This behaviour encourages attacks on the US.. and other country's (Spain/Madrid for example). I only hope that the US get's some sense and leave there before thing's get really ugly..

It's not like the US are doing everything, all the countries there are doing their share of the work.. While you say the Americans hate it there.. Think about the other country's who are there when they were against this war/skirmish.. Still they went.. they didn't approve this war, nor did the UN..
But hey Bush can do whatever he likes it seems.. The UN says no.. well screw them i'm the president and i can do what i like.. Think before doing something rash

Bah enough of this ranting, i have other things to do.. But i had to get it off my chest, cause i can't stand it that some US think they are so great when they are no much better then the rest..

Just my humble opinion.. No more, no less

PS: sorry for the mess in my post, i'm tired and sometimes i don't typ straight then

The_Neon_Cowboy · Apr 30, 2004, 10:31 PM

Quote:

"Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners. "

Quote:

Originally posted by zerodamage
Bluelight, this isn't some huge scandal. This was discovered by the US Millitary and as you can see, this is being handled. Punishment has been delt out or soon will be.

I'd say so and this story is over a mouth old allready, why so long to come out?
and actaully anything that doesn't actally phyically harm or kill them is fair game.

considering any us captives are useallly sent home in a body bag I fell little remorse for them. These people are hardend mentally and phyically and it take alot to get them to talk. So i undestand wre thier comeing from but they went out of bounds on this one.

but i found this bit intersting......

Quote:

"â€œWe had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,â€ says Frederick. â€œAnd it just wasn't happening."

If they didn't know what they could or could not do that could easliy be a root of the whole shurade

but this one is even more to the point...

Quote:

â€œSo what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,â€ adds Kimmitt. â€œI'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."

You can't with in reason blame the entire US army or the entire US for that matter for the actions of a small few

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 30, 2004, 10:36 PM

I blame the Nazis that trained and supervised the morons you see on the pictures.

They will not be charged.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 30, 2004, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drakesteakn
if the brits do better, then u can have iraq, Americans hate being in Iraq cuz we do most of the work. We Americans are the ones fighting the insurgants not the brits.

Americans can't always do everything by themselves. Send more troops over to Iraq if u can do better, we need more troops. not people crying over Iraq, get up and do something not just sit and watch.

giving up won't help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody asked you to go there on your own but your government had their own ideas.

Acoording to their geniously thought out plan you were supposed to have half as many troops in Iraq today than what you have right now.

If they had shoiwed any interest in having international troops there ...then they would...only theyÂ´d have to wait until the UN measures had finally prooved not to be efficent.

That....would have taken another six months.

However.....we now know that this was never the idea.The idea of te Bush government was from the start of its period in rule to attack Iraq no matter whichway.

The ACTUAL reason for that...well....another time...

Right now...we see how an old black dog named Khadaffi (who is just as black as he always was) is invited to to business with anyone who feels like making a little money in Libya.

The reason he can do so....is because he is now ...AGAIN...OUR DOG.

Saddam wasnÂ´t smart enough.Thats was his problem.

Being OUR DOG is enough.

Bluelight

zerodamage · Apr 30, 2004, 11:04 PM

I can not believe someone actually called Osama a "Freedom Fighter". I'd love to know what killing 3000 civilians did to further his cause for freedom. Please, someone enlighten me on that one. We are all terrorists? *sigh*
The rest of the post wasn't worth reading after reading that.

UnIcOrN · Apr 30, 2004, 11:17 PM

Well maybe it wasn't in the right context.. I changed it for you zerodamage, but i would like to explain it a little further.

In his eyes, and a whole lot of islamic's, he isn't a terrorist, but a freedom fighter. He thinks that by destroying or crippeling the US he makes life in the East more peacefull and more free without any intervention from the West.. Whatever his motives they are wrong, there's no denying in that. I didn't explain it right i saw.. My apologies about that..

I don't see him is a freedom fighter myself, i only ment to clarify that the meaning terrorist is doublesided. We see them as terrorist's, they see us as terrorist's. Therefore i said we are all terrorist's cause we all look at each other in that kinda way.

I in now way approve what happened in NY.. It made me sick watching it k

?
But every country has done some terroristic things (in the eyes of the people who live there).

I hope this makes it better for you zerodamage ? As you can see it is changed in my previous post.
If i offended you (or anyone else for that matter) it wasn't my intention (The part about the freedom fighter thingie i mean)

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 30, 2004, 11:27 PM

Freedom fighter or not is a question of semantics and a question of being muslim or not.

Against the background of what is going on right now....

No definitions have ANY value any longer.

Its all bullshit on all sides.

Bluelight

zerodamage · May 1, 2004, 01:06 AM

No Problem Unicorn. I'd just never seen anyone here before say that. I am sure I'm not the only one that found that a little irritating.

In regards to how he perceives himself. I really do not care what he thinks himself as. It is irrelevant. He sent his terrorists over here and killed 3000 civilians. When people try to say that we are terrorists it irritates me a little. We are not about creating terror. We do not go out and kill civilians (not on purpose). You can not compare the US Military to Osama and his crew. What a few idiots did do not represent the entire Military. The same can be said for those that are black, white, Mexican, whatever. You can't call people racist when their opinion is based on the actions of a few and at the same time hate the entire US military over the actions of a few.

Guidoo · May 1, 2004, 02:16 AM

Blue...the US cannot simply "pull out of Iraq".....what govt was there is gone. And the US and Saddam are to blame. Saddam for his years of skirting UN requirements , and the US along with Britain for toppling his regime and not having any kind of immediate plan to setup a govt. At least in Afganistan there was an interim govt setup within a few weeks. Here we are...a year past invasion and no govt. I know that an interim govt is supposed to be up an running in a few more weeks..but over a year later ??

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Neon_Cowboy

I'd say so and this story is over a mouth old allready, why so long to come out?
and actaully anything that doesn't actally phyically harm or kill them is fair game.

Neon ....do you really believe that ??? I agree that people (troops and civilians) captured by the opposition have been treated worse. But does that make it OK for us to do crap like this ??? ...We are supposed to be the good guys...remember......we are members of the civilized world and prisoners even POW's have some rights.

As for why this story took so long to hit mainstream media ?? Perhaps realizing what a political hot potato this story was, the "liberal press" (much sarcasm applied) hesitated to report it. After all how would Joe Citizen feel about the US after seeing this. And I agree that this handfull of soldiers in no way represent the US military. I believe most any of our military would lay down his/her life to keep what happened to these men from happening to anyone. But there are people in this world (even the US) that think it's ok for this to happen. Thankfully they are a very small minority .

Guido

bird chest · May 1, 2004, 03:15 AM

Bluelight what are you freaking out about 17 soldiers out of the entire US military in Iraq 150,000! That is 1 in every 10,000 soldiers. If you really think the entire US did not mess up. By the way during WWII they often had to lock the Jews back up in the death camps because they had to regulate their food intake to make sure that they did not eat themselves to death. So you are wrong again. Unicorn we have tried to get the UN in here but they don't want to come so stop saying we keep them out. I do not blame the UN for not coming I just think it is stupid for you guys to blame them not coming on the US. The Brits can do it better?!!? What the hell! Proof I want to see proof. The Brits have a smaller force in much more passive and less stressful areas thus less stressful. When it is less stressful soldiers do not freak out and do stuff like this. And to imply like this that a whole country is inferior to another is just ignorant. The entire world and every single country has people who would do stupid stuff like this so to say that Britain would do it better is just dumb. You need to take a step out of your left wing box and realize what is going on. Some bad stuff did happen and the US is allowing IRAQIES to prosecute them!!!!! What else do you want done? Pulling out is not an option. To give terrorists the sense of accomplish ment to have beaten the most powerful country in the world is not a good idea.

UnIcOrN · May 1, 2004, 09:22 AM

Ok.. glad that's cleared up

Hell it even made me feel weird typing that. But i tried to be objective and see it from their point of view.
But yeah, it wasn't the smartest thing to do i see now.
Never try to mingle in a political discussion when you're not thinking straight, it isn't a good thing to do

~~bluelight~~ · May 1, 2004, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
Bluelight what are you freaking out about 17 soldiers out of the entire US military in Iraq 150,000! That is 1 in every 10,000 soldiers. If you really think the entire US messed up in this one scenerio you are an idiot. By the way during WWII they often had to lock the Jews back up in the death camps because they had to regulate their food intake to make sure that they did not eat themselves to death. So you are wrong again. Unicorn we have tried to get the UN in here but they don't want to come so stop being stupid and saying we keep them out. I do not blame the UN for not coming I just think it is stupid for you guys to blame them not coming on the US. The Brits can do it better?!!? What the hell! Proof I want to see proof. The Brits have a smaller force in much more passive and less stressful areas thus less stressful. When it is less stressful soldiers do not freak out and do stuff like this. And to imply like this that a whole country is inferior to another is just ignorant. The entire world and every single country has people who would do stupid stuff like this so to say that Britain would do it better is just dumb. You need to take a step out of your left wing box and realize what is going on. Some bad stuff did happen and the US is allowing IRAQIES to prosecute them!!!!! What else do you want done? Pulling out is not an option. To give terrorists the sense of accomplish ment to have beaten the most powerful country in the world is not a good idea.

Pulling out is not an option...

No that is right.

Leaving the responsability to the securith council is.

And..

I suggest you leave the "idiot stuff" out of it when talking to me.

Second..They will not be charged by IraqÃ* courts.

They will at most be charged by US CONTROLLED IraqÃ¬ courts.

My guess is that they will like William Calley and his men be charged...AT HOME...and given a couple of months at an army base and that they like Calley will be treated like a hero by large numbers of the Us population.

UnIcOrN · May 1, 2004, 09:54 AM

@Birdchest: First of all i didn't say the US is keeping the UN out of Iraq (otherwise there wouldn't be any other country's now would there ?)
Second calling me stupid by giving my opinion (YES MY OPINION) is kinda childish

. It's clear we don't share the same view on this point so at least respect another one's view instead of bashing and attacking each other, i respect your view, is it that hard to do it back ?

Maybe the UN can fix it if they intervene, then again maybe they can't. The US are doing their job there's no denying that.
I agree that the UN should take a more direct control in this matter instead of just standing and watching at the side line. Sofar a few country's are helping the US out and they are also doing a great deal of work there. Even they put their lives in danger just as the US soldiers are doing. It would be better if there was a peace force at work there instead of only military, but there isn't one now is there ?

I think this topic is getting a little out of control with everybody attacking each other and flaming the hell out of each other.
Maybe close it down or at least being more civillized to each other.

~~bluelight~~ · May 1, 2004, 10:01 AM

Another thing...

"I do not blame the UN for not coming"

I mean...are you serious?

DO you know ANYTHING about this conflict?

USA started this invasion BY THEMSELVES and that WAS PLANNED TO HAPPEN from the moment the Bush government was in seat.

The UN HAD AN ONGOING PROCESS IN IRAQ that was nearly finished which would have led to a COLLECTIVE INVASION OF IRAQ......had it been allowed to finish.

But...that would have left your rightwing government without COMPLETE CONTROL...

Well you cant have everything can you?

You cant have complete control unless YOU TAKE THAT CONTROL .......and.....DO THE JOB YOURSELF...

Which is what they planned and ...what they did.

The people of YOUR nation PAYS for that politics.

So dont speak to me of "blaming the UN when it comes to these issues.

You are there as a result of Neoconservative politics...and your nation didnt check the cards of Rumsfeld,Cheney and the others....You just let them deal the cards....

Dont do the same mistake twice.Get them out next time you get the option.

Bluelight

digerati · May 1, 2004, 11:05 AM

I'm very sure Russia would have okayed a UN invasion so that all the countries could discover all the nice weapons and jets they illegally sold Iraq.

~~bluelight~~ · May 1, 2004, 12:11 PM

When did they sell them?Before or after the first Gulf war and the sanctions made after it?

If you claim that they werte sold by the Russian state AFTER the sanctions were made and that the material sold was on the mlist of forbidden items...then i urge you to post RELEVANT info on the matter.

Bluelight

Zardon · May 1, 2004, 12:42 PM

While we encourage discussion and viewpoints in here, we have to draw the line at insults based on differing views. there have been several reports about this thread but id like it to continue if the commentary can be kept to the point.

**dj_stick** · May 1, 2004, 12:59 PM

it seems that people can get very worked up over their political and religious viewsâ€¦ hence these so called "religious" warsâ€¦ and the comments passed between members in this forum

GOG · May 1, 2004, 02:08 PM

Seems like the soldiers in "Her Majesty's army" are abusing prisoners as well: http://mirror.co.uk

What a bunch of losers you have in your armies.

Zardon · May 1, 2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GOG
Seems like the soldiers in "Her Majesty's army" are abusing prisoners as well: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html

What a bunch of losers you have in your armies.

check your link

~~bluelight~~ · May 1, 2004, 02:30 PM

Reports? In this thread? Funny.There has been no personal insults in this thread so i take it the reports are about peoples wiews then.

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · May 1, 2004, 02:39 PM

The text below is from the Daily mirror.For some reason i cant link to it ..so there are no images.These Nazis took nice images of their torture deeds...just like SS did in Germany.Its funny...wonder why they do that?

maybe just as well........the images dont show.

SHAME OF ABUSE BY BRIT TROOPS

May 1 2004

Rogue British troops batter Iraqis in mockery of bid to win over people

By Paul Byrne

A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die.

The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth.

After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died.

URINATED ON: A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating.

The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals.

Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation.

Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour."

No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement."

The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

GUN TO HEAD: The terrified suspect cowers as a gun is placed at his head - then the rifle barrel was forced into his mouth

Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."

Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge.

Soldier A told how the young victim was hauled in suspected of stealing from the docks.

He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle."

Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back.

Soldier A said:

As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.

You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in s**t.

"So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p*** themselves.

Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours.

BLEEDING: Blood seeps through the mask of battered suspect

You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p****d on and there was spew.

"We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'.

I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again.

"He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take.

After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off.

Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong."

Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time.

BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on

"We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine.

"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."

Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence.

He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "

The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter.

The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects.

Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way.

"You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted.

"A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want."

Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators.

One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway.

"They've just got f****d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'.

"We're struggling now. There are too many people against us."

The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it."

~~bluelight~~ · May 1, 2004, 02:54 PM

If you read the text you will also see that the soldier says the man had done...nothing.

The_Neon_Cowboy · May 1, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
If you read the text you will also see that the soldier says the man had done...nothing.

funney you said that and posted the british thing becouse I was getting ready to post this below

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
There is no ..Buuut...in this thing.Im sorry.

The Brits do it better.

Bluelight

Well just wait thier going to release the photos of brtish troops doing the same abuses !!!!
It was on cnn they are desideing if and when i relese the photos

some the brits were doing the EXACT kind of things

this was on cnn last night bit I was too tired to get on and post it

Apr 30, 2004, 05:08 PM	#1
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well..Its time for Usa to leave Iraq now Usa has fucked up for good in Iraq and unfortunaltly it is irreparable. Get out of there and leave this to the UN. You are obviously not capable of handling this. What happens on these videos are not terrorist propaganda. It is systematic torture carried out by Us military. You cant handle it. Thats it. The British can...but Usa can not. How come? Another thing...How can anyone be so bloody dumb that they use Saddam Husseins torture centre as prison? Its like if the allies would have used Aushwitz or Treblinka as prison in Germany..So unbelievably moronic. It will be ...very intertsteing to see what the puniushments the responsable for this will be. It will also be very intersting to see if those in superior position will even be charged. Credibility ..messed up for good. If Bush had...one tiny little chance for a second period.....then that tiny little chance....is gone. Bluelight Last edited by bluelight; Apr 30, 2004 at 05:30 PM.

Apr 30, 2004, 05:36 PM	#2
UnIcOrN HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 239 Rep Power: 0	Well said Bluelight.. I agree with you on this.. __________________ [COLOR=white][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR]

Apr 30, 2004, 09:30 PM	#5
drakesteakn boo!!!! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Ft. Meyers, FL Posts: 2,041 Rep Power: 0	if the brits do better, then u can have iraq, Americans hate being in Iraq cuz we do most of the work. We Americans are the ones fighting the insurgants not the brits. Americans can't always do everything by themselves. Send more troops over to Iraq if u can do better, we need more troops. not people crying over Iraq, get up and do something not just sit and watch. giving up won't help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! __________________

Apr 30, 2004, 10:11 PM	#7
UnIcOrN HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 239 Rep Power: 0	They wouldn't be in this mess if the Americans told the truth about there reason of attacking Iraq.. And don't start that BS of Saddam and Osama being secretly working together. They can't stand each other.. One was a dictator and the other is a TERRORIST. In a way we are all terrorist by occupying a different country, and i mean everyone not only the Americans. In their eyes the West are terrorist's, in (y)our eyes they are. It is better if the UN takes over.. cause the US are seen as occupiers instead of liberators even though Bush thinks they are.. Instead of looking through your eyes, see it from there point of view.. They didn't ask for this, but they have to live with it day after day. This behaviour encourages attacks on the US.. and other country's (Spain/Madrid for example). I only hope that the US get's some sense and leave there before thing's get really ugly.. It's not like the US are doing everything, all the countries there are doing their share of the work.. While you say the Americans hate it there.. Think about the other country's who are there when they were against this war/skirmish.. Still they went.. they didn't approve this war, nor did the UN.. But hey Bush can do whatever he likes it seems.. The UN says no.. well screw them i'm the president and i can do what i like.. Think before doing something rash Bah enough of this ranting, i have other things to do.. But i had to get it off my chest, cause i can't stand it that some US think they are so great when they are no much better then the rest.. Just my humble opinion.. No more, no less PS: sorry for the mess in my post, i'm tired and sometimes i don't typ straight then __________________ [COLOR=white][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR] Last edited by UnIcOrN; Apr 30, 2004 at 11:10 PM.

Apr 30, 2004, 11:17 PM	#12
UnIcOrN HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 239 Rep Power: 0	Well maybe it wasn't in the right context.. I changed it for you zerodamage, but i would like to explain it a little further. In his eyes, and a whole lot of islamic's, he isn't a terrorist, but a freedom fighter. He thinks that by destroying or crippeling the US he makes life in the East more peacefull and more free without any intervention from the West.. Whatever his motives they are wrong, there's no denying in that. I didn't explain it right i saw.. My apologies about that.. I don't see him is a freedom fighter myself, i only ment to clarify that the meaning terrorist is doublesided. We see them as terrorist's, they see us as terrorist's. Therefore i said we are all terrorist's cause we all look at each other in that kinda way. I in now way approve what happened in NY.. It made me sick watching it k ? But every country has done some terroristic things (in the eyes of the people who live there). I hope this makes it better for you zerodamage ? As you can see it is changed in my previous post. If i offended you (or anyone else for that matter) it wasn't my intention (The part about the freedom fighter thingie i mean) __________________ [COLOR=white][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR] Last edited by UnIcOrN; Apr 30, 2004 at 11:25 PM.

Apr 30, 2004, 07:02 PM	#3
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	This truly is a horrible site to see. Buuuuut. The article says it was a prison, so I take it that it was. And maybe they should have used Auschwitz as a prison, let the germans get a taste of what they did. Let us not forget it was a U.S. general that started making the locals walk through the concentration camps to see the monstrocities. From what I understand, the army was already punishing these people right? At least give them credit for not just ignoring what the troops were doing and taking action against them.

Apr 30, 2004, 09:21 PM	Thread Starter #4
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	There is no ..Buuut...in this thing.Im sorry. The allies should have used Auschwitz as prison for the Germans? As a lesson in how democracy work i take it? No man...they have messed up and unfortunatley those really responsable for this....not the pissheads on the videos......the ones that taught and instructed the morons....will most likely never be charrged for the crimes. A good lesson for Iraq in how the free world works. Give the army credit?For what? They cant handle Iraq. The Brits do it better. Bluelight

Apr 30, 2004, 09:45 PM	#6
zerodamage HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 3,478 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Bluelight, this isn't some huge scandal. This was discovered by the US Millitary and as you can see, this is being handled. Punishment has been delt out or soon will be.

Apr 30, 2004, 10:36 PM	Thread Starter #9
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	I blame the Nazis that trained and supervised the morons you see on the pictures. They will not be charged. Bluelight

Apr 30, 2004, 11:04 PM	#11
zerodamage HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 3,478 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	I can not believe someone actually called Osama a "Freedom Fighter". I'd love to know what killing 3000 civilians did to further his cause for freedom. Please, someone enlighten me on that one. We are all terrorists? sigh The rest of the post wasn't worth reading after reading that.

Apr 30, 2004, 11:27 PM	Thread Starter #13
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Freedom fighter or not is a question of semantics and a question of being muslim or not. Against the background of what is going on right now.... No definitions have ANY value any longer. Its all bullshit on all sides. Bluelight

May 1, 2004, 01:06 AM	#14
zerodamage HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 3,478 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	No Problem Unicorn. I'd just never seen anyone here before say that. I am sure I'm not the only one that found that a little irritating. In regards to how he perceives himself. I really do not care what he thinks himself as. It is irrelevant. He sent his terrorists over here and killed 3000 civilians. When people try to say that we are terrorists it irritates me a little. We are not about creating terror. We do not go out and kill civilians (not on purpose). You can not compare the US Military to Osama and his crew. What a few idiots did do not represent the entire Military. The same can be said for those that are black, white, Mexican, whatever. You can't call people racist when their opinion is based on the actions of a few and at the same time hate the entire US military over the actions of a few.

May 1, 2004, 03:15 AM	#16
bird chest DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 454 Rep Power: 0	Bluelight what are you freaking out about 17 soldiers out of the entire US military in Iraq 150,000! That is 1 in every 10,000 soldiers. If you really think the entire US did not mess up. By the way during WWII they often had to lock the Jews back up in the death camps because they had to regulate their food intake to make sure that they did not eat themselves to death. So you are wrong again. Unicorn we have tried to get the UN in here but they don't want to come so stop saying we keep them out. I do not blame the UN for not coming I just think it is stupid for you guys to blame them not coming on the US. The Brits can do it better?!!? What the hell! Proof I want to see proof. The Brits have a smaller force in much more passive and less stressful areas thus less stressful. When it is less stressful soldiers do not freak out and do stuff like this. And to imply like this that a whole country is inferior to another is just ignorant. The entire world and every single country has people who would do stupid stuff like this so to say that Britain would do it better is just dumb. You need to take a step out of your left wing box and realize what is going on. Some bad stuff did happen and the US is allowing IRAQIES to prosecute them!!!!! What else do you want done? Pulling out is not an option. To give terrorists the sense of accomplish ment to have beaten the most powerful country in the world is not a good idea. Last edited by bird chest; May 1, 2004 at 08:02 PM.

May 1, 2004, 09:22 AM	#17
UnIcOrN HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 239 Rep Power: 0	Ok.. glad that's cleared up Hell it even made me feel weird typing that. But i tried to be objective and see it from their point of view. But yeah, it wasn't the smartest thing to do i see now. Never try to mingle in a political discussion when you're not thinking straight, it isn't a good thing to do __________________ [COLOR=white][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR]

May 1, 2004, 09:54 AM	#19
UnIcOrN HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 239 Rep Power: 0	@Birdchest: First of all i didn't say the US is keeping the UN out of Iraq (otherwise there wouldn't be any other country's now would there ?) Second calling me stupid by giving my opinion (YES MY OPINION) is kinda childish . It's clear we don't share the same view on this point so at least respect another one's view instead of bashing and attacking each other, i respect your view, is it that hard to do it back ? Maybe the UN can fix it if they intervene, then again maybe they can't. The US are doing their job there's no denying that. I agree that the UN should take a more direct control in this matter instead of just standing and watching at the side line. Sofar a few country's are helping the US out and they are also doing a great deal of work there. Even they put their lives in danger just as the US soldiers are doing. It would be better if there was a peace force at work there instead of only military, but there isn't one now is there ? I think this topic is getting a little out of control with everybody attacking each other and flaming the hell out of each other. Maybe close it down or at least being more civillized to each other. __________________ [COLOR=white][COLOR=#000000][/COLOR][/COLOR]

May 1, 2004, 10:01 AM	Thread Starter #20
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Another thing... "I do not blame the UN for not coming" I mean...are you serious? DO you know ANYTHING about this conflict? USA started this invasion BY THEMSELVES and that WAS PLANNED TO HAPPEN from the moment the Bush government was in seat. The UN HAD AN ONGOING PROCESS IN IRAQ that was nearly finished which would have led to a COLLECTIVE INVASION OF IRAQ......had it been allowed to finish. But...that would have left your rightwing government without COMPLETE CONTROL... Well you cant have everything can you? You cant have complete control unless YOU TAKE THAT CONTROL .......and.....DO THE JOB YOURSELF... Which is what they planned and ...what they did. The people of YOUR nation PAYS for that politics. So dont speak to me of "blaming the UN when it comes to these issues. You are there as a result of Neoconservative politics...and your nation didnt check the cards of Rumsfeld,Cheney and the others....You just let them deal the cards.... Dont do the same mistake twice.Get them out next time you get the option. Bluelight

May 1, 2004, 11:05 AM	#21
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	I'm very sure Russia would have okayed a UN invasion so that all the countries could discover all the nice weapons and jets they illegally sold Iraq.

May 1, 2004, 12:11 PM	Thread Starter #22
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	When did they sell them?Before or after the first Gulf war and the sanctions made after it? If you claim that they werte sold by the Russian state AFTER the sanctions were made and that the material sold was on the mlist of forbidden items...then i urge you to post RELEVANT info on the matter. Bluelight

May 1, 2004, 12:42 PM	#23
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	While we encourage discussion and viewpoints in here, we have to draw the line at insults based on differing views. there have been several reports about this thread but id like it to continue if the commentary can be kept to the point.

May 1, 2004, 02:08 PM	#25
GOG Please answer the voices in my head Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 308 Rep Power: 0	Seems like the soldiers in "Her Majesty's army" are abusing prisoners as well: http://mirror.co.uk What a bunch of losers you have in your armies. Last edited by GOG; May 1, 2004 at 02:31 PM.

May 1, 2004, 02:30 PM	Thread Starter #27
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Reports? In this thread? Funny.There has been no personal insults in this thread so i take it the reports are about peoples wiews then. Bluelight

May 1, 2004, 02:39 PM	Thread Starter #28
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	The text below is from the Daily mirror.For some reason i cant link to it ..so there are no images.These Nazis took nice images of their torture deeds...just like SS did in Germany.Its funny...wonder why they do that? maybe just as well........the images dont show. SHAME OF ABUSE BY BRIT TROOPS May 1 2004 Rogue British troops batter Iraqis in mockery of bid to win over people By Paul Byrne A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die. The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth. After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died. URINATED ON: A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating. The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals. Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation. Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour." No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement." The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. GUN TO HEAD: The terrified suspect cowers as a gun is placed at his head - then the rifle barrel was forced into his mouth Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head." Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge. Soldier A told how the young victim was hauled in suspected of stealing from the docks. He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle." Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back. Soldier A said: As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head. You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in st. "So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p* themselves. Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours. BLEEDING: Blood seeps through the mask of battered suspect You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p**d on and there was spew. "We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'. I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again. "He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take. After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off. Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong." Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time. BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on "We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine. "One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war." Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence. He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' " The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter. The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects. Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way. "You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted. "A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want." Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators. One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway. "They've just got f*d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'. "We're struggling now. There are too many people against us." The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it." Last edited by bluelight; May 1, 2004 at 02:47 PM.*

May 1, 2004, 02:54 PM	Thread Starter #29
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	If you read the text you will also see that the soldier says the man had done...nothing.