dj_stick

Should this be compulsory even for the so called "religious" private schools? (Often a better option than public schools for parents wishing their kids to get ahead)
What about those of other or no religion attending these schools? Should the schools force them to take RE even if they do not believe in it? Would you be offended by it?

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JavaFox

No, religion doesn't belong in public schools.

Private schools can and should be able to do whatever and teach whatever they'd like.

kemet64

I agree with Java on this one. Public schools should not and can not require the religion class on people. However, the private school can do whatever they want. You are directly paying them, choosing to go to that school. There are other private schools you could go to, and not all public schools are "bad".

Basically, if a private catholic school wants to make religion a requirement, then it should be able to because people are choosing to go to that school.

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ToshiroOC

I believe the only circumstances under which religion should be taught in public schools are in general religious history classes that take a secular approach and give the opportunity to learn about many different religions, so no one establishment of religion is supported by the teaching of the class.

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bluelight

Yeah of course religion should be taught.

Religion in general...All religion..

Privateschools?

Yeah as long as they are not funded with a dime of taxmoney.

Roadee

All religion?? Sounds like a cop out to me. Does that include your leftist diatrive indoctrinated in our children from pre school on up? Including mother Gia, which is a religion? I see no separation of church and state in this doctrine. If you truely believed in all religions.....Christianity wouldn't frieghten you as much as it does.....whether you believe or not. Or maybe you are referring to the religious outkast that are killing themselves and other's in the "name of THERE god"?? Is this the same god that you are wanting our children to be forced to learn about?


Define ALL religions??

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HawK

My opinion:
Religion education doesn't belong in schools.
Kids should be learning in school about moral & what's good and what's wrong..
Kids don't understand religion, kids don't care about religion & kids should not be scared with religious inventions like Hell & eternal Doom
Parents should not be allowed to force religion on their children.
When kids are mature, then they should be allowed to find their own religion.

bluelight

All religions means..that school should not teach children to believen any SPECIFIC religion in a nation where free speech ...democracy and free will resides...

It SHOULD however teach childern about the EXISTANCE and whereabouts of all MAJOR important religions.

And why?Because it would most likely spare the world of of many problems if people ACTUALLY knew what they were talking about when they talked (as an example) about muslims or Jews and their religion.It would also most likely spare the world of expressions like "Raghead" etc etc..due to the fact that knowledge about other peoples ethnic and religious preferences genberally promoted constructive thinking rather than destructive thinking.

Its very simple.

Another issue ..is what you do at home..at home you should be free to tech your kids whatever religion you want and you should also be free to run a church based on practically whatever religion you want.

This has nothing to do with left or right.It is a question of free choice.It either applies or it doesnt.

A rightwing nation woth free trade and unregulated market...and a "state religion" (which is what you have if you teach ONE specific religion at school) is of course not a free nation.



Ok?



Bluelight

bluelight

Also...you say a lot about christianity...and me...being afraid of it etc etc..

Well...i believe in God and i have always done so.Im 50 years old.I visit chuch several times a year.Im married in church.Im baptised at church.My children is baptised at church.

The only problem i have right now with this is that my father died a couple of months ago..at that point i kinda lost the connection with God..facing death itself and as it occured to me...the emptiness that awaites us all......BUT...i have a feeling that he will return to my mind...as he always does.

So....left right ..up down....in out...

Isnt really the issue wheh it comes to religion.

THAT is something that the POLITICIAN in people teach.Some people ...also priests etc etc..dont understand this.




Bluelight

Roadee

A rightwing nation woth free trade and unregulated market...and a "state religion" (which is what you have if you teach ONE specific religion at school) is of course not a free nation.

Um.......where is this fantasy land that you are talking about? I have never heard of a "right wing religion".....and have no clue what you are talking about when you say a "state religion". Are you even from the US?? Most likely not from the way that you talk....your ignorance is ungracefully apparent.

Considering what you are saying.......I have only one question. What socialistic utopia should we model our nation after?? Also considering that public schools are not allowed to teach ANY religion, because of separation of Church and State.....all of you amusing points are severly MUTE.

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Roadee

I say we should just nominate Hillary Clinton to become President of the US. That way we can just end it all........There would be no reason to debate about religion of any kind....or where to teach it. Because all hell would break loose and we would all die in a huge ball of flame anyway.

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ToshiroOC

It makes sense to allow all religions to be taught in a secular manner for several reasons. First off, secular teaching of religion will, if anything, be biased against all of the religions, leaving them on an equal footing and allowing the state to be essentially neutral. The state should not be advocating ANY religion under any conditions, but advocacy is distinctly different from education. The separation of church and state is a fundamental principle which, if I understand correctly, you agree with. However, this principle is based on the 1st Amendment, which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". The general education about many different religions from a secular standpoint does not respect any establishment of religion, but merely educates, as far as I can see.

One does not need to "truly believe" in all religions to see the benefits of teaching the generics of many religions to students. As a case in point, you mentioned the possibility of children being "forced" to learn about terrorist philosophy. There is no reason that such philosophy cannot be taught to the students, with the caveat that it would be represented the same way other religions are; a general religion class only has a use for older students who are moral free agents capable of distinguishing between right and wrong, and one would hope that accurate detailing of the violent religious beliefs of certain extremists would clearly establish such beliefs as inconsistent with society's accepted morals in the United States.

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tastyweat

I think that RE should not be forced upon students - but should be an option for people who would like it - i for one had to endure 9 years of it!!! What a load of BS! lol - (I'm not the religious type)

however, if religion is taught - but only for a year or two in secondary school - I think that that would be a good idea too - as it gives people a forsight into other cultures

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dj_stick

i agree with the tolerance of other cultures idea… but force feeding the unwilling with their dogma seems a bit on the extreme side

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bluelight

I did not say that there exists a rightwing religion..although some christians are into that path.

I said :

A rightwing ruled nation based on market needs that has a close liason between state and religion and where a specific religion is taught to small children in PUBLIC schools is not a FULLY free nation .

You also ask:

"Are you even from the US?? Most likely not from the way that you talk....your ignorance is ungracefully apparent."


My reply is:

What does that have to do with the issue?...and...ignorance on what?


You then say:

What socialistic utopia should we model our nation after??


My reply is:

I thought this topic was about teaching a specific religion in school.Not about which economic system that is best for a nation.

Try making a new toipic for that and ill maybe reply you.


Finally you say:

all of you amusing points are severly MUTE



My reply is.

Well to you yes that is obvious since you havent adressed anything at all of what i said.


Bluelight

bluelight

And...no im not from the Usa .We cant all be can we...even if its hard to cope with.

Bluelight

dj_stick

i'm not in the us either, and this thread isn't about politocs so much as forcefeeding impressionable children with possibly offensive material

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Asmoday

Well....i'm all for teaching children ABOUT religion, give them insight what other religions are about...in Swedish schools we learn the basics about the most common religions, like Hindu, Islam, Christianity(Ofcoures) and so on....but i'm totally AGAINST that the pupils should be forcefed with what religion they should believe in.

btw...i am not a religious man..

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bluelight

I dont understand your point.

Bluelight

raid517

Well maybe I'm not contributing anything all that new by saying that teaching religion to kids in schools may go a small way towards removing some of the ignorance and bigotry of the kind we sometimes see on this forum.

The problem with some of the Christian members here is that they automatically assume that this means we should attempt to indoctrinate our kids into accepting these different view points as absolute fact - in a similar way to that which many Christians attempt to force their views on others.

But this is hardly the case. secular RE makes no claims for the 'correctness' or otherwise of any given perspective. It simply lays out what these people believe, what their history is and describes what this means for those who do accept and believe these things in the way they choose to live their lives.

I believe there is a movement in the US that would seek to ban this - and instead have only the Christian perspective discussed - or none at all. (Perhaps they are just a more vocal force - I am unaware whether or not they have gained much success in reality). Why is this I wonder? Why would certain Christians seek to forbid even the discussion of other religions - why would they wish to give the impression that no other credible perspectives exist?

I guess that is a question that kind of answers itself. Clearly they feel it is better to promote ignorance, mistrust and fear - because in doing so they feel they will win more souls for their own particular cause.

I do not think teaching religion in schools is a bad thing - but I think promoting any one perspective over another is always likely to be a dangerous and destructive thing to do.

GJ

zerodamage

This coming from someone who's stated he hates Christians. Yet preaches about bigotry.

swimtech

Having three of my five kids in school, with two more about to enter (and a Christian - who knows the Word as factual...) I would say honestly I don't think it would be a good idea to teach RE in public schools.

From a practical standpoint, from my experience with my children as well as my own (I attended a Lutheran school for two years for junior high), it seems there just isn't enough time to allocate to teaching RE in the public school curriculum. The teachers and administrators already have a full plate teaching the basics (Reading, Writing, Mathematics, Science, Social Studies, History, and English - grammar etc. in the US) and fulfilling the broad and specific mandates set forth by each state for the teaching of those subjects. Alloting another 35-45 minute block just doesn't seem feasible.

Also, imagine the debate over exactly what an RE curriculum should contain, and who would decide? Millions of dollars and millions of man-hours defining terms, curriculum topics, content, etc... Thoughtful and caring people (for the most part I would trust) trying to sort through more details than have already been worked through for all the other subjects combined - because religion(s) are not taken as fact by, say, Hindus viewing Christianity, but as opinions. The opinions would have to be reconciled for each religious viewpoint. Too much...

Private schools do the job of RE well. The parents of the children make the choice to send their children there and speak with their dollars, as well as their mouths and hearts. The parents of the children involved in private school certainly teach their children too and have the reinforcement of the private curriculum for assistance. For those who don't have the money - the job falls to the parents of those children and their chosen gathering of believers (Church).

The founding fathers of this nation were, by and large, men of faith. They were wise enough to see that religion (and by extension for purposes of this thread) or teaching of religion by the government or government entity (the public schools) is "too big a can of worms" to be properly handled in a government fashioned as a republic.

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raid517

You want to start this fight again?

I stated I hated bigots. It is simply the case that many of these so called right wing neo-Conservative Christian fundamentalists that are making so much noise in the US at the moment, are prime examples of what any reasonably minded person would term as 'bigots'.

I spelled it out for you before. Since you seem to like pictures I'll draw a picture for you too if you want.

Providing you are prepared to say 'live and let live' and keep your big fat, ignorant, uniformed nose out of other people's business (perhaps not your's specifically), I will defend to the death your right to live and practice as you please. However the moment you start interfering, pushing your religious values on others who do not share them, preaching intolerance and hatred of other perspectives and other religions, I reserve the right to, if the opportunity presented itself and I thought that the threat to our freedom and our democracy was real and present to damn well go out and get a gun and take up arms against you. Thankfully in my own country that is a long way off from ever happening - so we can all probably live in peace and prosperity for much of the foreseeable future.

I am intolerant of intolerance, I am bigoted against bigots, I feel deep and abiding hatred for racists - and in all of these things I am happy, confirmed and proud of the views I hold.

And if you, or anyone else here imagines for as much as a millisecond that I am ever going to apologise for holding them - or change them so that I can try and see things more 'from your point of view' - given that on the whole your point of view utterly sickens me - you have got a whole other thing coming.

I know what I said. And I will stick by it no matter what. You may or may not like it. But ask yourself if you will, just how much you imagine I really care about what you think?

Now either you have something useful to say - or you are just here to stir up sh*t. Which is it to be? Are you deliberately trying to get yourself banned by stirring up fights with other board members and insulting and offending just about anyone you can imagine? I could have reported you several times over for the things you have said - both to me and to other forum members. But so far I'm pretty sure I can fight my own fights. Nonetheless there is a line. Why are you always so keen to do your damdest to step over it?

GJ

zerodamage

Raid, you are a bigot. You and many of your friends here attack people who are conservative. You hate conservatives. You hate Christians. You have no respect for others beliefs other than your own. You attack them by falsely claiming racism. You automaticaly assume someone is a bigot and a racist the second you think they are conservative or republican. You are blinded by your intolerance of others and their views to see past your nose.

Zardon

Ok let me make this BLATANTLY clear, stop the namecalling. I made a post in the last thread and gave public warnings, perhaps people didnt actually think I meant it. I do. If I have to close this thread with the same people involved, ill be closing it with bannings.

kemet64

sigh, can we just have one debate, one thread, one topic that doesnt end up in childish namecalling and the thread being closed?

Okay, the original topic was not overall religion. It was should Private Schools be able to require students to take religion class.

I said yes because the people attending that school are choosing to attend it. If they dont agree with the religious beliefs....dont go there.

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raid517

No if you read what I said I think it's pretty clear I hate 'religious fundamentalists.' Unless as I said you think religious fundamentalism is OK/Desirable/To be encouraged? Read all of what I said - and not just the part you mistakenly believe suits your ends.

Moderate Christians, just like moderate conservatives can be a force for good in this world. But if you are asking me to be more accepting of extremist perspectives, of racism, religious intolerance, racial and sexual bigotry - then you are right, there is little prospect of that ever happening. Do you seriously expect me to stoop to seeing on the level of someone who thinks gay people are evil and immoral, or that people from different racial backgrounds can be differentiated on racial grounds alone? That may be the political perspective of the jungle, or of common street thugs - but such views have no place in normal decent society.

So no, I make no excuses for not agreeing to see things from 'this particular perspective' - or for hating people who think this way. What I hate is hatred - and I see no reason at all to apologies, or feel any kind of remorse at all for this.

You can call it bigotry if you want. I think you have already shown that your grasp of dictionary definitions is not quite what it should be.


In any case I think I want to make my first open complaint. I believe ZD is attempting to bait me and other forum members into a public fight - or into saying something that could lead to closing the thread, or that would incite Zardon to issue a ban.

I made what seemed like a reasonable and measured comment on this issue, only for ZD to weigh in with his Doc Martins on and kick out at me for no good reason.

He is clearly spoiling for a fight - and I do not think he has any good reason at all to behave this way.


If I am in the wrong here, please feel free to let me know. But I said nothing that could have warranted this kind of response.

Best regards,

GJ

Zardon

I dont run this forum with an iron hand, thats oppressive and unpleasant for the majority of intelligent people who post in this forum, specifically this political section - everyone has views and I hope you all have the freedom to express those views. I have been watching in here lately and have had no option but to keep a closer eye on postings as several people have been offended by commentary and feel this area is getting out of hand. commentary id like to add which I feel is at times out of line for rational and educated debate.

No one will be baited into flaming - and no one will be banned if you can all communicate in a reasonable manner - banning is a last resort. I have warned people in the last few threads to tone down emotions and express your views without insulting others and I expect this to be adhered to, otherwise people will be ejected.

Zero has attempted to start flaming in this thread and thats unacceptable, therefore this is a last and final warning on conduct, if I see anymoe of this kind of behaviour outside the flame zone you will be removed.

I am not closing this thread, so please continue to debate your views in here, but my tolerance for this childish and insulting behaviour is at an all time low. Get this thread back on track - along with this forum otherwise ill either be closing the whole damn forum or getting moderators to moderate every post before it hits public view.

Roadee

My response is going to be a little delayed....have people working on the house and alot of other stuff going on.......will get back to it soon..........if the name calling thing stops and the thread doesn't get closed......I will post in here.....if not we can continue it in PM? maybe.


For everyone posting in here........keep it civil......I really dont want to see any of you get banned.......and I dont really want to have to be the one to do it Most of you in here know each other, you should be able to respond to each other without personal attacks. Remember this one rule of thumb.......attack the ideas.......NOT THE PERSON.

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bluelight

Thats ok.I´ll be around.This place is cool.I like people here.I like ZeroD even though he doesnt want to recognize it.

Im too old to seriously dislike people due to politics.

My son will be fourteen in a couple of weeks.He is becoming a "serious" gamer (which i am not at all..i came here through the KX site and found Jeff Fallang and Raid..and got stuck)...hmmm,,,what was i mumbling about.....yeah my son..gamer...im gonna see to it that he registers here too.He will be able to profit more than me from all that is available here in terms of information etc etc..


Once again..Im whining on certain issues...with certain people..because i disgree with them..some i disagree with A LOOOT...but..i like them.Some would say...You cant like people on the internet....wrong...you can...after some time you start seeing things..if you keep your eyes open...real people behind the letters....

And yeah i am a leftwinger..im even a bloody socialist......others are the opposite..thats life...

and how can you dislike people as insistent as some of these dudes are? :-)

This isnt WW3 were doing here...were doing the option of the free world....talking arguing whining laughing....

I wouldt even be surprised if i´d be mighty impressed if i met someone like Wolfwitz in person...he is probably a great personality....

Bluey