Dutch is gone 1911 - 2004

Falstaff · Jun 6, 2004, 04:54 AM

I am sure many of you dont remember Ronald Reagan, but he was the first president that I really believed in from the first time I heard him speak, a consumate politician without a doubt, but a man of integrity as well, I enjoy both of his administrations and prospered during the 600 hundred ship navy of Lehman as well. He will be greatly missed.
He spoke with Charisma and reverance, he was the common man, and he enjoyed the fanfare too. And he spoke of the crew of challenger, it too warmed my heart for courage is the stuff of all men that makes them great, I recall the challenger eulogy too. read here
Ronald spoke mighty words and didnt back down one bit. He saw the world for what it was, and did not mince words, and when it came time to see the cold war to its bitter end, he commanded us all to tear the walls down between both Germanys. And he met the new russian leader upon his rise to power, and we witnessed his humour, his courage, his triumphs and his faliures as well. He made big mistakes but he stuck to his guns, and never waivered.

Quote:

Reagan was fond of referring to America as the “shining city on a hill,” the way John Winthrop, the first Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, referred to America when he first arrived on the shores of a new land.

In his farewell address, Reagan again referred to America as such a city, reflecting on how the country had changed since he took office. He also said some profound things about the strength and character of the United States and her people.

On that day in January 1989, he said, “And how stands the city on this winter night? More prosperous, more secure, and happier than it was eight years ago. But more than that: After 200 years, two centuries, she still stands strong and true on the granite ridge, and her glow has held steady no matter what storm. And she’s still a beacon, still a magnet for all who must have freedom, for all the pilgrims from all the lost places who are hurtling through the darkness, toward home.”

Reagan's presidency -- and Reagan's life -- is characterized by principle. Without exception, for Reagan, politics fell second to principle. Reagan wasn't naive -- he knew that he was elected to a political office and knew how to win over enemies and strengthen the resolve of friends. But he knew too that only principles are enduring, as political questions fade into obscurity and irrelevance.

A commitment to principle characterized, for example, President Reagan's dealings with the Soviet Union. He knew he went to the summit talks with Mikhail Gorbachev not only representing the political interests of a nation, but also the principles on which a nation was founded.

Jack Kemp, a key ally in Reagan's early tax cuts, described Reagan's approach this way: "Most politicians talk about policies and the changing issues of the day. Ronald Reagan talked about principles -- deeply held beliefs ... Policies shift with the breeze of public opinion, but principles are anchors, even in a storm."

A president must be an anchor for the nation; a president without steadfast principles is no anchor, and in the long run does no great service to his country.

President Reagan's life and political career demonstrated too that he was a man of honor. He is the product of Midwestern values, honed in the Depression: honest, hardworking, fair -- and committed to his religious faith.

It is the combination of a strong work ethic (disbelieved by a skeptical press but common knowledge among his friends and associates) with a solid value system that helped place Reagan among the great figures in American history. His faith was not the watered-down, publicly acceptable version of evangelicalism professed by many politicians today, but a true expression of heartfelt belief.

"When our struggle seems hard," said Reagan in 1981, "remember what Eric Liddell, Scotland's Olympic champion runner, said in 'Chariots of Fire.' He said, 'So where does the power come from to see the race to its end? From within. God made me for a purpose, and I will run for his pleasure.' If we trust Him, keep His word, and live for His pleasure, He'll give us the power we need -- power to fight the good fight, to finish the race, and to keep the faith."

The public face of Reagan's principled, honorable life is his undying sense of optimism -- of the three qualities mentioned, perhaps the one for which his was most often mocked. Yet, with what many mistook as naïveté, Reagan was able, in the face of adversity, to communicate a hopefulness and resolve that inspired others.

The way he approached his own life was the same way he approached the life of the nation. When America struggled through a recession in the early '80's, or faced such national tragedies as the Challenger explosion, Reagan was not a leader who merely responded with weak words of sympathy or tear in his eye.

He didn't lack compassion; on the contrary, he was compassionate enough to point the nation to higher ideals, a greater good that transcends immediate hardship.

"My optimism comes not just from my strong faith in God," Reagan once said, "but from my strong and enduring faith in man."

Greatness. It is, without a doubt, a question of character -- it cannot be measured in economic or political currency. Reagan, in giving a charge to the graduating class of the Citadel in 1993, in his own words best encapsulates the thing that separates him from other modern presidents: "The character that takes command in moments of crucial choices has already been determined by a thousand other choices made earlier in the seemingly unimportant moments ... It has been determined by all the day-to-day decisions made when life seemed easy and crises seemed far away -- the decisions that, piece by piece, bit by bit, developed habits of discipline or of laziness; habits of self-sacrifice or self-indulgence; habits of duty and honor and integrity -- or dishonor and shame.

Try to imagine those words coming from the mouth of an "average" president, like Bill Clinton. It's not easy.

80 percent of Americans still look upon him favorably, he was an actor, a cowhand, a politician and a good father too.

me.myself.&.ATi · Jun 6, 2004, 05:07 AM

amen

Alistair · Jun 6, 2004, 05:21 AM

*salute*

Falstaff · Jun 7, 2004, 12:57 AM

I watched the 92 republican convention speech that he chose to deliver and it was awesome, he will be missed, something no one will say about Bubba

Mata · Jun 7, 2004, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
I am sure many of you dont remember Ronald Reagan,...

Well as a non us citizen I will remember him mostly for his dirty wars in Central America that resulted in countless terrorist attacks and massacres on civilians and non civilians alike. His support of the contras drug trafficking and the arms shipment to IRAN comes to mind.

I will also remember him for his support for the racist apartheid regime in South Africa and the votes in the UN against the boycott that in the end helped the world get rid of this appalling system. If you can choose between supporting Nelson Mandela and a racist oppressor the choice is obvious (or at least it was for Reagan and his boys)

His support for Saddam Hussein and his war on IRAN and the Kurds using biological and chemical weapons was another proud moment for dear old Ronald. He made sure that IRAK built up a strong army with US support with which it later on threatened the region and invaded its neighbours. Well you Americans know the rest of the story…

There is so much to remember about Ronald Reagan but these are the things that first come to mind when I hear the news about his death.

Here is a litlle pamflet the CIA produced during the reagan administration.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war...ntra/copy.html

" If they do it it's terrorism, if we do it, it's fighting for freedom. "
Anthony Quainton, U.S.Ambassador to Nicaragua, 1984, asked to explain how such U.S. actions as the mining of Nicaragua's harbors and bombing of airports differed from the acts of terrorism that the U.S. condemned around the world

"We declared a state of siege so we could kill legally."
Efrain Rios Montt, "born-again Christian" military dictator of Guatemala in the 1980s, enthusiatically supported by the Reagan Administration

Falstaff · Jun 7, 2004, 03:58 AM

yeah...the damn Iran Contra affair, we are still paying for that

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 12:14 AM

Ya'acov Sa'ar/Israeli National Photo Collection

President Reagan and then-Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres hold a press conference at the White House in September 1986.

BEHIND THE HEADLINES

Despite occasional disagreements,
Reagan advocated for Jewish causes

By Ron Kampeas

WASHINGTON, June 6 (JTA) - Ronald Reagan's presidency was a time when U.S. Jewish power grew to new levels of influence - and when Jews learned of its limits.

Thanks to Reagan, who died Saturday at age 93 after a long struggle with Alzheimer's, the years 1981-1989 saw the consolidation of bipartisan support for the causes Jews held dearest: a secure Israel and the freedom of Soviet Jews.

It also saw the Republican Party become an acceptable option for Jews, ensuring that no single party could take the Jewish vote for granted.

"Historians will look back and say the Reagan years were the years the Jewish community looked back and tried the Republican Party on for size," said Marshall Breger, Reagan's liaison to the Jewish community from 1983 to 1985. "That began the process of developing a comfort level which is now only coming to fruition. The Reagan administration turned the Jews into a two-party community."

Yet Reagan also dealt the Jewish community two severe blows when he triumphed in pushing through Congress the sale of powerful spy planes to Saudi Arabia and when he delivered a forgive-and-forget paean at the Bitburg cemetery in Germany, where Nazi SS troops are buried.

Also, the political polarization now besetting domestic issues important to many Jews - including abortion rights, poverty relief and government medical assistance - was launched during the Reagan years.

"Reagan legitimated a right-wing biblical Victorian view of the family,"said Letty Cottin Pogrebin, a leading Jewish feminist who spent the 1980s fighting a rearguard defense of the feminist gains of the 1960s and 1970s. "We've been paying for it ever since."

Despite such issues, Reagan's presidency now is seen by many as halcyon days for Jewish issues in foreign policy, principally because of the effects of Reagan's greatest triumph: the near-total collapse of the Communist world.

"The end of the Cold War was important not just for the free world but for diminishing the cause of rejectionist Arab states and enabling Soviet Jews to be free," said David Makovsky, then a leading Soviet Jewry activist and now a top Middle East analyst at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. "We can only be grateful for this."

Mark Levin, also a prominent Soviet Jewry activist in those days, emphasized that the benefits the struggle for Soviet Jewry derived from Reagan's crusade against the "Evil Empire" were not incidental; for Reagan, Soviet Jewish freedom was central to the struggle.

Reagan made sure Soviet Jewry was a priority at each meeting between American and Soviet officials, along with nuclear disarmament and economic assistance, recalled Levin, now the executive director of NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States and Eurasia.

"He was someone who was truly committed to overturning the Communist system and gaining freedom for all people, but he had a particularly soft spot in his heart for Soviet Jewry," Levin said.

Max Kampelman, Reagan's chief arms reduction negotiator, said Reagan's interest in Jewish issues came naturally. The two had frequent and long conversations about Israel and anti-Semitism, he told JTA.

Still there were times when Reagan's interest caught even Kampelman, a carryover from the Carter administration, off guard.

In one 1982 meeting, Kampelman proposed making dissidents part of the negotiating package on arms reduction with the Soviets. The suggestion might have undermined the talks and was likely to raise the hackles of some allies, but Reagan was receptive.

At the end of the meeting, Kampelman recalled, "he gave me a list of people, and said, `See what you can do about helping these people in Russia.' "

He said he didn't look at the list until he left his office and it was a list of Jewish refuseniks."

One of the most prominent of those refuseniks, Natan Sharansky, now an Israeli Cabinet minister, sent Reagan's wife, Nancy, a letter of consolation on Sunday and expressed his gratitude to the former president.

"Former President Reagan changed the march of history and the fate of millions of people because he was one of the few, outstanding leaders who brought about the collapse of the Soviet Empire," wrote Sharansky, whose dramatic release from a Soviet prison in 1986 and immigration to Israel portended the end of the struggle for Soviet Jews.

Reagan also earned Jewish admiration for appointing secretaries of state who were sympathetic to Israel. Alexander Haig and George Schultz both broke with the traditional "bad cop" role that the Cabinet officer usually plays with the Jewish state.

But the president's visceral sympathy for Israel was undermined by his uneasy relations with then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The leaders' styles inevitably clashed: the avuncular, give-me-the-big-picture movie star versus the proper European-born lawyer.

"There were many misreadings," Breger recalled.

When Begin said "no problem" about settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, Reagan assumed Israel was agreeing to a freeze; but Begin merely was saying, with characteristic confidence, that the settlements should not pose a problem.

"Theirs were different personalities," Breger said, so much so that Reagan expressed relief in 1984 after his first meeting with Begin's successor, Yitzhak Shamir - even though Shamir sometimes took a harder line than Begin.

The first crisis of Israel ties during Reagan's presidency was occasioned by Israel's attack in June 1981 on Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor.

Reagan, a proponent of nuclear power in the United States, was upset that an ally ostensibly was reinforcing perceptions that all nuclear power posed dangers, and he suspended arms shipments to Israel in response. Reagan said Iraq, which the United States then supported, may have been persuaded to use the nuclear reactor for peaceful purposes.

Reagan also resented the lobbying by Israel and its supporters against the sale of AWACS spy planes to Saudi Arabia in 1981. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, outraged that Reagan was reneging on a campaign promise so soon after his election, got the House of Representatives to oppose the sale.

When the battle went to the Senate, Reagan, eager for a triumph with an irascible Congress, played hardball. He and his aides raised the specter of dual loyalty charges.

"The administration was out there saying 'Reagan or Begin,' " recalled Ira Forman, then the political director for AIPAC and now the executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council.

Begin's opposition to the sale especially peeved Reagan, and on Oct. 1 of that year, Reagan famously said "It is not the business of other nations to make American foreign policy."

That set off a wave of anti-Semitic hate mail to senators. The AWACS sale triumphed in the Senate, and the apparent succumbing to warnings about excessive Jewish influence was a shock for a pro-Israel community that had become increasingly confident in its influence since the Yom Kippur War.

Reagan attempted to make amends after the vote by proposing a strategic relationship with Israel in November 1981. Begin and the Knesset surprised Reagan a month later by annexing the Golan Heights, territory claimed by Syria.

Reagan withdrew his offer, and two months after Reagan's October remark, Begin got his own back at Reagan: Israel was nobody's "banana republic," the Israeli prime minister said, a defiant statement that undermined Reagan's desire to appear in control of events.

Less than a year later, in June 1982, tempers flared again when Israel invaded Lebanon in order to oust the PLO from its stronghold there. Israel said it got a "yellow light" from Secretary of State Haig - a fact that helped accelerate Haig's departure from office.

More substantially, Reagan secretly formulated a plan not only to pull Israeli troops out of Lebanon, but to force Israel into withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza. He ultimately envisioned Palestinian autonomy in a federal system with Jordan.

When Reagan announced the plan on Sept. 1, 1982, Begin said it was "the saddest day of my life." Ultimately, resistance by the Likud Party-led Cabinet killed the plan.

Only days later, Israel's Christian allies in Lebanon, the Phalangists, raided a Palestinian refugee camp and slaughtered hundreds of civilians there. The ensuing controversy over the degree of Israel's responsibility poisoned Israel's image in the West. It also led to the resignation of Israel's then-defense minister, Ariel Sharon.

Reagan reacted to the event, known as the Sabra and Shatila massacre, by creating a multinational force to help keep the peace in Lebanon.

He also kept on his desk a photograph of a Lebanese toddler who presumably had lost his limbs in an Israeli attack - although later research would prove the photo was a distortion; it was a girl who was recovering from a broken arm.

In response to Reagan's office gesture, Begin put on his desk the famous photo of a young boy surrendering to Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto.

It didn't help Israel that when a suicide attack the following summer in Lebanon killed 241 U.S. Marines, some blamed Israel for dragging the United States into the conflict there. In truth, Israeli officials had tried hard to persuade Reagan not to deploy troops to the region.

The attack on the Marine barracks created an impression that would dog Israel throughout the 1980s and beyond: Israel somehow was responsible for anti-American terrorism.

Despite such tensions, affection for Reagan persisted among Jews. He earned a respectable 31 percent of the Jewish vote in the 1984 elections, though it did not match the 39 percent he had won in 1980, when the pro-Reagan Jewish vote largely was the result of voter backlash against the policies of President Carter.

The most serious test of Reagan's relationship with the Jews came after those elections, when Reagan announced in April 1985 that he would visit Bitburg, a World War II military cemetery, to commemorate the 40th anniversary of D-Day.

Reagan's optimism, so valued by the Jewish community when it came to his hopes for Israel and Soviet Jewry, was a factor in this decision: The president wanted to look ahead, not backward, he said.

But U.S. Jews were stunned, especially when they learned that more than 40 members of the Waffen SS were buried at Bitburg. Not even a personal appeal from Elie Wiesel, America's best-known Holocaust survivor, could dissuade Reagan.

The failure to keep Reagan from Bitburg was another reminder of the limits of organized Jewish suasion. But again, Jewish bitterness eventually melted away because of the bigger picture that encompassed Reagan's friendliness to Jews.

"With Reagan, you had disagreements but you couldn't get angry with him," recalled Hyman Bookbinder, then the Washington director of the American Jewish Committee. "That explains a lot of the comity; his staff was open to me and others who wanted to communicate our feelings."

Breger makes the case that Bitburg was necessary to keep Germany on board with U.S. policies. Propping up Chancellor Helmut Kohl helped keep Pershing missiles in Europe, which helped bring the Soviet Union to its knees.

Breger also said Reagan's priority in the Middle East always was Israel's security.

"President Reagan made his decisions on the basis of the option papers he was given, and he would always choose the option least injurious to Israel," Breger said. "The Jewish community would say 'gevalt,' but they didn't know the other options."

On the domestic front, Reagan often was accused of clumsiness when it came to understanding minorities - his remarks on "welfare queens" drew fire from blacks, to cite one notable example - but he acted swiftly whenever anyone close to him expressed outright bigotry.

Reagan forced James Watt, his interior secretary, to resign in 1983 after Watt said of one of his department's committees, "I have a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple. And we have talent."

Reagan promised social reforms to Christian conservatives, but he never pursued those pledges with great enthusiasm. In 1982, he introduced a school prayer amendment but let it die in Congress; in 1987, he did little to stop the steamrolling of his Supreme Court candidate, Robert Bork.

Still, the symbolic weight he gave to the ideas of the Christian right, through repeated appearances with its leaders and through his speeches, gave that constituency access to power that it otherwise might not have had.

"He set the stage over many of the battles over social issues, choice, marriage amendment, school prayer," said Mark Pelavin, then a legislative assistant with the American Jewish Congress and now the associate director of the Reform movement's Religious Action Center.

Pelavin said the Christian right and small-government advocates gained their first footholds with Reagan.

"The whole anti-poverty agenda, the whole idea of trickle-down economics, making people stronger by supporting them less - it hasn't proven true," Pelavin said.

Still, that did not diminish Reagan's other achievements, Pelavin said.

"The end of the Cold War, strengthening the U.S.-Israel alliance - he was a pivotal figure and his achievements will be long-lasting," he said.

(JTA correspondents Matthew E. Berger in Washington and Lev Krichevsky in Moscow contributed to this report.)

I will not support ANY president that favors Israel, or ANY OTHER foreign country above our own - Uninted States of America.

That includes Nixon, and his love of the slants, Bush, and his unconditional love for Israel, and their "Vibrant Jewish State", or Kerry, and his FOREIGN (and dare I note - JEWISH) blood.

Yeah, Kerry isn't even American.

This country is going down the slide backwards, and, unfortunately, that just isn't going to work.

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 12:20 AM

And I ask you...

Why did we win WWII? I can bet you anything that the people in America, in Europe, and anywhere else in the world, at the time of the second war, were not thinking it would turn out like this..

That their children's children would lack ALL sense of morality, compassion, loyalty, RESPECT, or self-preservation..

Oh, no.. They didn't think it would come down to this. They didn't think their grand kids, or great grand kids would be tipping the bottle, shooting up drugs, having relationships with their worst enemies great grand kids..

The very people our relatives died trying to keep out of the country are living amongst us now. Having relationships with our friends, relatives, and ourselves...

So, why did we win WWII? Did we really save the world? Or did we destroy it? What was the point? If it wasn't Hitler, who atleast had a legitiment REASON for doing what he did, it would later be the Jewish state controlling us in the most destructive way since the dawn of time.

(Sorry for the double post, but it was too long, so I had to)

ToshiroOC · Jun 8, 2004, 12:40 AM

Quote:

The rules state:
* No racial, sexual, homophobic, or any other slur targeting a minority will be tolerated. This behavior is grounds for banning.

First and last warning, Joystick. I don't want to hear any more racist claptrap about "love of the slants" or how people aren't American if they are Jewish. If you want to argue that Reagan and others valued Israel's place in United States foreign policy more than was good for the United States, go ahead, but I'm quite intolerant of blatant racism.

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 02:18 AM

I only said that to add the war POV perspective. I didn't mean any offense, honestly.

And, I didn't mean that Kerry wasn't American because he was Jewish, but because he just plain isn't American. He's got heavy French relations, and was born outside of the Uninted States.

That, is not American.

Sorry for the confusion, but I meant no harm.

JavaFox · Jun 8, 2004, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoyStick
And, I didn't mean that Kerry wasn't American because he was Jewish, but because he just plain isn't American. He's got heavy French relations, and was born outside of the Uninted States.

That, is not American.

That is a load of bullshit.

Falstaff · Jun 8, 2004, 04:31 AM

a profound pile of excrement, he is turning to the darkside Java......Master Java.....a Jedi mindtrick please

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 07:36 AM

Stare at a copy of his birth certificate, and tell me it's BS..

Proper Gander · Jun 8, 2004, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoyStick
and was born outside of the Uninted States.

so he can't run for President then?

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 07:58 AM

Obviously he can... I dunno why, but he is, and will probably win..

Oh well, though. We'd be in just as much crap as we would be with Bush.. Atleast now we can say America really is owned by the jews

malkor · Jun 8, 2004, 08:04 AM

He was born in Aurora, Colorado. His father was born in Massachusetts. His grandfather was from Austria-Hungary (now Czech Republic).

It is not possible for one to run for President of the United States if one is not born there.

Please get your facts straight, and ease up on the obvious anti-semitism.

Proper Gander · Jun 8, 2004, 08:04 AM

only a native-born US citizen can be President.

...and America is "owned" by Americans, taxpayers that is

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 08:17 AM

Hmm... I'd need to see some valid proof stating that. I've heard the "Colorado" bit, and had it shot down before my eyes with some substanial proof.

I don't know a WHOLE hell of a lot about the man, aside from his ethnicity, and presidential "goals".

We're all entitled to making some mistakes, and stupid comments, and for all I know, this could have been one. But, you didn't provide any evidence backing up your claim, so I'll stand behind my knowledge until I get some cold hard evidence that the person is, infact, a US citizen.

Also note: I am in no way, shape, or form anti-semitic.

I simply do not like the workings of our government, their zionist agendas, and the jews blatant promotion of anti-white racism.

If I didn't turn on the TV, and see all of this multi-cultural crap, and then be slapped in the face by some guy talking about how we're all equal, how everyone should support everyone's views, and then, at the end, "WE MUST STOP INTOLERANCE!"

I mean, COME ON!

You say, "Love everyone, love this that, and the other. Love your neighbor regardless of race, BUT HATE THE HECK OUT OF THE NAZI ASSHOLES, NO MATTER WHAT!"

And, don't get me wrong. I am not "nazi" by any means. I do not support National Socialism, or a "master" race.

However, I do support the preservation of my OWN race, and for whatever reason, that still leaves me labeled a "nazi". I don't get it, but I don't really care, either. I've got more important things to worry about than what people will call me tommorow. Just so long as I live, and stay out of jail, it's been a good day.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040518-1.html
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3774005.stm
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/kashrut.htm
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=2758

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...802077&fid=942
http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=9442&TagID=2
http://www.bahraintribune.com/Articl...9&CategoryId=5

bird chest · Jun 8, 2004, 08:29 AM

well anyways back to Reagan.

Proper Gander · Jun 8, 2004, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoyStick
Hmm... I'd need to see some valid proof stating that. I've heard the "Colorado" bit, and had it shot down before my eyes with some substanial proof.

I'll stand behind my knowledge until I get some cold hard evidence that the person is, infact, a US citizen.

don't you think he gov't would check on this before he could run for President?
but hey, if it's true, all you have to do is forward the "proof" you speak of to the gov't, and he won't be President
if that's what you want.

Quote:

Also note: I am in no way, shape, or form anti-semitic.

I simply do not like the workings of our government, their zionist agendas, and the jews blatant promotion of anti-white racism.

that just reminded me of something I read once... a reporter talking to some guy on the street about gays
he said something like: "are you against gays?" ... "no, but I am agiainst sinners" ... "is homosexuality a sin?" ... "yes"
lol

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 8, 2004, 08:45 AM

It's all a big grey area as far as the precidency goes...

There's no telling what deceitful acts go on that NO ONE has a clue about. I highly doubt myself, or anyone else, for that matter, mailing in JK's birth certificates would change anything, though.

Oh, and yeah.. The religious types. They're.. emm.. yeah..

raid517 · Jun 14, 2004, 11:43 PM

Lol I think we've found ourselves our genuine resident Nazi.... All forums must have them I guess. I know people sometimes accuse me of playing the race card (well one guy who seems to say a lot of quite racist things does anyway) but this guy definitely looks like the genuine article.

The only small problem is that his views are so whacked out and so 'out there' that I doubt anyone can take them seriously.

Really to be honest I personally wish he would leave - because every time he opens his mouth he forces a thread to descend into absurdity and worthlessness.

I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy - but I'm not going to waste my time talking to some skinhead neo Nazi with a genuinely poor grasp on history and current affairs.

Everything he says is about 'race this' and 'ethnicity that' and about the Jews and the 'Jewish conspiracy.' I mean common, this is 2004 not 1934. The world has moved on from all that crap. I recognize his diatribe from quite a few white supremacists sites I have read. I don't think I'm alone in speaking both for the left and the right of this forum, in saying that that kind of garbage isn't welcome here.

Anyhoo as for Reagan, it's sad he's dead. But at 90+ years old, I think he had a pretty good innings. He did a lot of cool things in his life - of which becoming President was just one.

GJ

~~bluelight~~ · Jun 14, 2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by malkor
He was born in Aurora, Colorado. His father was born in Massachusetts. His grandfather was from Austria-Hungary (now Czech Republic).

It is not possible for one to run for President of the United States if one is not born there.

Please get your facts straight, and ease up on the obvious anti-semitism.

Austria Hungary? Then his grandfather probably was a Nazi.This dude will have no further problems with Kerry then.

Bluelight

raid517 · Jun 15, 2004, 12:03 AM

Lol... Let's not over play it... I had a hard enough time getting my head around some forum members accusation that Kerry was a French spy - but that he may be a Nazi sympathizer too?

Like I said, with people like this around threads can quickly become very silly.

I know you're only joking Blue - but it is a measure of how stoopid this forum is becoming.

GJ

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 15, 2004, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
Austria Hungary? Then his grandfather probably was a Nazi.This dude will have no further problems with Kerry then.

Bluelight

Lol... Bluelight, perhaps you haven't been informed, but I am NOT a nazi, and assuming I were, I would still not like him because A.) If I were a National Socialist, and am not of Jewish Ethnicity, my policital stature would forbid me to "like" this guy, because he is jewish. B.) He is crazy bad for America, and C.) He isn't my kinda guy. I don't like the puny annoying weak types, and he is all of the above.

Thanks for the attempt, though.

raid517 · Jun 15, 2004, 12:58 AM

Erm... Sounds a bit Like a Nazi manifesto to me... 'Puny, annoying weak,' racially inferor... 'Exterminate them!' Erm... 'him!'

GJ

malkor · Jun 15, 2004, 01:06 AM

Did someone say something?

bzzzzz.....

zerodamage · Jun 15, 2004, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Lol I think we've found ourselves our genuine resident Nazi
GJ

You think everyone you disagree with is a Nazi. It is a cop out and it is getting sickening that it is allowed.

raid517 · Jun 15, 2004, 01:47 AM

Na... Don't worry ZD... In this case I don't think you're even nearly in the same league...

This guy has spent the last few days on the forum spouting what pretty much amounts to classic fascist ideology.

It's not much of a surprise to me that you can't see it, since it requires some appreciation of the history of some of the things that are being said. I won't even try to press you on your understanding of Nietzsche, because I'm pretty sure you don't even know who he is. Equally I won't ask you about what you feel are the true roots of German paganism - since an understanding of both of these are required to appreciate what the concept of National Socialism really was. In a sense Nazism was a much purer much more intellectual ideology than the simple right wing politics of modern America - but it was no less poisonous or destructive because of it.

I think what you are and what he is are very different things - unless of course anti-semtism and genuine white Anglo Saxon/white supremacy are things that really do appeal to you.

You are certainly a member of the extreme right. However the the American extreme right and the German extreme right are really very different animals. The German extreme right was for example motivated by many ideals and philosophical theories that the American right fundamentally lacks.

Neither are very admirable. But certainly history has shown that one has proven at least once to be much more corrupt and destructive than the other.

In this instance however I would think carefully before you decide who you want to align yourself with. This is the kind of mud that is guaranteed to stick.

GJ

~~JoyStick~~ · Jun 15, 2004, 02:20 AM

Wow, sounds like I touched some nerves..

I can't believe this is actually being said.. Sounds like some of you assosciate some things with things that ought not be assosciated with..

Whatever the case, I'll "chill out" on the "racism/nazism" I'm being accused of, and get down to posting some good old truth.

123 million jewish people died in WWII. What, you don't believe me? You damn nazi!

Iraq blew up Israel fourty times, and they must be murdered off the face of this earth.

America is completely cool, and 100% dedicated to it's citizens. The fact that they're neglected is a sign of love.

Illegal Immigrants are the reason America is able to function today. Without them, we would be a pile of dust.

Honest, and if you say otherwise, you're a NAZI!

I hope this clears my name. 's a shame that a person looking into things because they just aren't adding up is called a nazi, but whatever. You're you, and I'm not you, so I don't really care.

Oh, I almost forgot...

Jews are the superior master race, and I, just a lonely goy am nothing but a piece of cattle that happens to look like a human being.

"Goyim are made to look like humans so that the jews need not be served by beasts"

Jun 6, 2004, 05:07 AM	#2
me.myself.&.ATi .:z0diac Knight:. Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: .:this is definitely not my timeline:. Posts: 249 Rep Power: 0	amen __________________ "No cause is a good cause as long as personnal interest is of matter." N. Ahdour

Jun 6, 2004, 05:21 AM	#3
Alistair Spoos Join Date: May 2002 Location: State College, PA, USA Posts: 435 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	salute __________________ - Alistair

Jun 7, 2004, 12:57 AM	Thread Starter #4
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I watched the 92 republican convention speech that he chose to deliver and it was awesome, he will be missed, something no one will say about Bubba __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 7, 2004, 03:58 AM	Thread Starter #6
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	yeah...the damn Iran Contra affair, we are still paying for that __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 8, 2004, 12:14 AM	#7
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	Ya'acov Sa'ar/Israeli National Photo Collection President Reagan and then-Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres hold a press conference at the White House in September 1986. BEHIND THE HEADLINES Despite occasional disagreements, Reagan advocated for Jewish causes By Ron Kampeas WASHINGTON, June 6 (JTA) - Ronald Reagan's presidency was a time when U.S. Jewish power grew to new levels of influence - and when Jews learned of its limits. Thanks to Reagan, who died Saturday at age 93 after a long struggle with Alzheimer's, the years 1981-1989 saw the consolidation of bipartisan support for the causes Jews held dearest: a secure Israel and the freedom of Soviet Jews. It also saw the Republican Party become an acceptable option for Jews, ensuring that no single party could take the Jewish vote for granted. "Historians will look back and say the Reagan years were the years the Jewish community looked back and tried the Republican Party on for size," said Marshall Breger, Reagan's liaison to the Jewish community from 1983 to 1985. "That began the process of developing a comfort level which is now only coming to fruition. The Reagan administration turned the Jews into a two-party community." Yet Reagan also dealt the Jewish community two severe blows when he triumphed in pushing through Congress the sale of powerful spy planes to Saudi Arabia and when he delivered a forgive-and-forget paean at the Bitburg cemetery in Germany, where Nazi SS troops are buried. Also, the political polarization now besetting domestic issues important to many Jews - including abortion rights, poverty relief and government medical assistance - was launched during the Reagan years. "Reagan legitimated a right-wing biblical Victorian view of the family,"said Letty Cottin Pogrebin, a leading Jewish feminist who spent the 1980s fighting a rearguard defense of the feminist gains of the 1960s and 1970s. "We've been paying for it ever since." Despite such issues, Reagan's presidency now is seen by many as halcyon days for Jewish issues in foreign policy, principally because of the effects of Reagan's greatest triumph: the near-total collapse of the Communist world. "The end of the Cold War was important not just for the free world but for diminishing the cause of rejectionist Arab states and enabling Soviet Jews to be free," said David Makovsky, then a leading Soviet Jewry activist and now a top Middle East analyst at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. "We can only be grateful for this." Mark Levin, also a prominent Soviet Jewry activist in those days, emphasized that the benefits the struggle for Soviet Jewry derived from Reagan's crusade against the "Evil Empire" were not incidental; for Reagan, Soviet Jewish freedom was central to the struggle. Reagan made sure Soviet Jewry was a priority at each meeting between American and Soviet officials, along with nuclear disarmament and economic assistance, recalled Levin, now the executive director of NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States and Eurasia. "He was someone who was truly committed to overturning the Communist system and gaining freedom for all people, but he had a particularly soft spot in his heart for Soviet Jewry," Levin said. Max Kampelman, Reagan's chief arms reduction negotiator, said Reagan's interest in Jewish issues came naturally. The two had frequent and long conversations about Israel and anti-Semitism, he told JTA. Still there were times when Reagan's interest caught even Kampelman, a carryover from the Carter administration, off guard. In one 1982 meeting, Kampelman proposed making dissidents part of the negotiating package on arms reduction with the Soviets. The suggestion might have undermined the talks and was likely to raise the hackles of some allies, but Reagan was receptive. At the end of the meeting, Kampelman recalled, "he gave me a list of people, and said, `See what you can do about helping these people in Russia.' " He said he didn't look at the list until he left his office and it was a list of Jewish refuseniks." One of the most prominent of those refuseniks, Natan Sharansky, now an Israeli Cabinet minister, sent Reagan's wife, Nancy, a letter of consolation on Sunday and expressed his gratitude to the former president. "Former President Reagan changed the march of history and the fate of millions of people because he was one of the few, outstanding leaders who brought about the collapse of the Soviet Empire," wrote Sharansky, whose dramatic release from a Soviet prison in 1986 and immigration to Israel portended the end of the struggle for Soviet Jews. Reagan also earned Jewish admiration for appointing secretaries of state who were sympathetic to Israel. Alexander Haig and George Schultz both broke with the traditional "bad cop" role that the Cabinet officer usually plays with the Jewish state. But the president's visceral sympathy for Israel was undermined by his uneasy relations with then-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The leaders' styles inevitably clashed: the avuncular, give-me-the-big-picture movie star versus the proper European-born lawyer. "There were many misreadings," Breger recalled. When Begin said "no problem" about settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, Reagan assumed Israel was agreeing to a freeze; but Begin merely was saying, with characteristic confidence, that the settlements should not pose a problem. "Theirs were different personalities," Breger said, so much so that Reagan expressed relief in 1984 after his first meeting with Begin's successor, Yitzhak Shamir - even though Shamir sometimes took a harder line than Begin. The first crisis of Israel ties during Reagan's presidency was occasioned by Israel's attack in June 1981 on Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor. Reagan, a proponent of nuclear power in the United States, was upset that an ally ostensibly was reinforcing perceptions that all nuclear power posed dangers, and he suspended arms shipments to Israel in response. Reagan said Iraq, which the United States then supported, may have been persuaded to use the nuclear reactor for peaceful purposes. Reagan also resented the lobbying by Israel and its supporters against the sale of AWACS spy planes to Saudi Arabia in 1981. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, outraged that Reagan was reneging on a campaign promise so soon after his election, got the House of Representatives to oppose the sale. When the battle went to the Senate, Reagan, eager for a triumph with an irascible Congress, played hardball. He and his aides raised the specter of dual loyalty charges. "The administration was out there saying 'Reagan or Begin,' " recalled Ira Forman, then the political director for AIPAC and now the executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council. Begin's opposition to the sale especially peeved Reagan, and on Oct. 1 of that year, Reagan famously said "It is not the business of other nations to make American foreign policy." That set off a wave of anti-Semitic hate mail to senators. The AWACS sale triumphed in the Senate, and the apparent succumbing to warnings about excessive Jewish influence was a shock for a pro-Israel community that had become increasingly confident in its influence since the Yom Kippur War. Reagan attempted to make amends after the vote by proposing a strategic relationship with Israel in November 1981. Begin and the Knesset surprised Reagan a month later by annexing the Golan Heights, territory claimed by Syria. Reagan withdrew his offer, and two months after Reagan's October remark, Begin got his own back at Reagan: Israel was nobody's "banana republic," the Israeli prime minister said, a defiant statement that undermined Reagan's desire to appear in control of events. Less than a year later, in June 1982, tempers flared again when Israel invaded Lebanon in order to oust the PLO from its stronghold there. Israel said it got a "yellow light" from Secretary of State Haig - a fact that helped accelerate Haig's departure from office. More substantially, Reagan secretly formulated a plan not only to pull Israeli troops out of Lebanon, but to force Israel into withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza. He ultimately envisioned Palestinian autonomy in a federal system with Jordan. When Reagan announced the plan on Sept. 1, 1982, Begin said it was "the saddest day of my life." Ultimately, resistance by the Likud Party-led Cabinet killed the plan. Only days later, Israel's Christian allies in Lebanon, the Phalangists, raided a Palestinian refugee camp and slaughtered hundreds of civilians there. The ensuing controversy over the degree of Israel's responsibility poisoned Israel's image in the West. It also led to the resignation of Israel's then-defense minister, Ariel Sharon. Reagan reacted to the event, known as the Sabra and Shatila massacre, by creating a multinational force to help keep the peace in Lebanon. He also kept on his desk a photograph of a Lebanese toddler who presumably had lost his limbs in an Israeli attack - although later research would prove the photo was a distortion; it was a girl who was recovering from a broken arm. In response to Reagan's office gesture, Begin put on his desk the famous photo of a young boy surrendering to Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto. It didn't help Israel that when a suicide attack the following summer in Lebanon killed 241 U.S. Marines, some blamed Israel for dragging the United States into the conflict there. In truth, Israeli officials had tried hard to persuade Reagan not to deploy troops to the region. The attack on the Marine barracks created an impression that would dog Israel throughout the 1980s and beyond: Israel somehow was responsible for anti-American terrorism. Despite such tensions, affection for Reagan persisted among Jews. He earned a respectable 31 percent of the Jewish vote in the 1984 elections, though it did not match the 39 percent he had won in 1980, when the pro-Reagan Jewish vote largely was the result of voter backlash against the policies of President Carter. The most serious test of Reagan's relationship with the Jews came after those elections, when Reagan announced in April 1985 that he would visit Bitburg, a World War II military cemetery, to commemorate the 40th anniversary of D-Day. Reagan's optimism, so valued by the Jewish community when it came to his hopes for Israel and Soviet Jewry, was a factor in this decision: The president wanted to look ahead, not backward, he said. But U.S. Jews were stunned, especially when they learned that more than 40 members of the Waffen SS were buried at Bitburg. Not even a personal appeal from Elie Wiesel, America's best-known Holocaust survivor, could dissuade Reagan. The failure to keep Reagan from Bitburg was another reminder of the limits of organized Jewish suasion. But again, Jewish bitterness eventually melted away because of the bigger picture that encompassed Reagan's friendliness to Jews. "With Reagan, you had disagreements but you couldn't get angry with him," recalled Hyman Bookbinder, then the Washington director of the American Jewish Committee. "That explains a lot of the comity; his staff was open to me and others who wanted to communicate our feelings." Breger makes the case that Bitburg was necessary to keep Germany on board with U.S. policies. Propping up Chancellor Helmut Kohl helped keep Pershing missiles in Europe, which helped bring the Soviet Union to its knees. Breger also said Reagan's priority in the Middle East always was Israel's security. "President Reagan made his decisions on the basis of the option papers he was given, and he would always choose the option least injurious to Israel," Breger said. "The Jewish community would say 'gevalt,' but they didn't know the other options." On the domestic front, Reagan often was accused of clumsiness when it came to understanding minorities - his remarks on "welfare queens" drew fire from blacks, to cite one notable example - but he acted swiftly whenever anyone close to him expressed outright bigotry. Reagan forced James Watt, his interior secretary, to resign in 1983 after Watt said of one of his department's committees, "I have a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple. And we have talent." Reagan promised social reforms to Christian conservatives, but he never pursued those pledges with great enthusiasm. In 1982, he introduced a school prayer amendment but let it die in Congress; in 1987, he did little to stop the steamrolling of his Supreme Court candidate, Robert Bork. Still, the symbolic weight he gave to the ideas of the Christian right, through repeated appearances with its leaders and through his speeches, gave that constituency access to power that it otherwise might not have had. "He set the stage over many of the battles over social issues, choice, marriage amendment, school prayer," said Mark Pelavin, then a legislative assistant with the American Jewish Congress and now the associate director of the Reform movement's Religious Action Center. Pelavin said the Christian right and small-government advocates gained their first footholds with Reagan. "The whole anti-poverty agenda, the whole idea of trickle-down economics, making people stronger by supporting them less - it hasn't proven true," Pelavin said. Still, that did not diminish Reagan's other achievements, Pelavin said. "The end of the Cold War, strengthening the U.S.-Israel alliance - he was a pivotal figure and his achievements will be long-lasting," he said. (JTA correspondents Matthew E. Berger in Washington and Lev Krichevsky in Moscow contributed to this report.) I will not support *ANY* president that favors Israel, or ANY OTHER foreign country above our own - Uninted States of America. That includes Nixon, and his love of the slants, Bush, and his unconditional love for Israel, and their "Vibrant Jewish State", or Kerry, and his FOREIGN (and dare I note - JEWISH) blood. Yeah, Kerry isn't even American. This country is going down the slide backwards, and, unfortunately, that just isn't going to work. Last edited by JoyStick; Jun 8, 2004 at 12:20 AM.

Jun 8, 2004, 12:20 AM	#8
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	And I ask you... Why did we win WWII? I can bet you anything that the people in America, in Europe, and anywhere else in the world, at the time of the second war, were not thinking it would turn out like this.. That their children's children would lack ALL sense of morality, compassion, loyalty, RESPECT, or self-preservation.. Oh, no.. They didn't think it would come down to this. They didn't think their grand kids, or great grand kids would be tipping the bottle, shooting up drugs, having relationships with their worst enemies great grand kids.. The very people our relatives died trying to keep out of the country are living amongst us now. Having relationships with our friends, relatives, and ourselves... So, why did we win WWII? Did we really save the world? Or did we destroy it? What was the point? If it wasn't Hitler, who atleast had a legitiment REASON for doing what he did, it would later be the Jewish state controlling us in the most destructive way since the dawn of time. (Sorry for the double post, but it was too long, so I had to)

Jun 8, 2004, 02:18 AM	#10
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	I only said that to add the war POV perspective. I didn't mean any offense, honestly. And, I didn't mean that Kerry wasn't American because he was Jewish, but because he just plain isn't American. He's got heavy French relations, and was born outside of the Uninted States. That, is not American. Sorry for the confusion, but I meant no harm.

Jun 8, 2004, 04:31 AM	Thread Starter #12
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	a profound pile of excrement, he is turning to the darkside Java......Master Java.....a Jedi mindtrick please __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Jun 8, 2004, 07:36 AM	#13
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	Stare at a copy of his birth certificate, and tell me it's BS..

Jun 8, 2004, 07:58 AM	#15
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	Obviously he can... I dunno why, but he is, and will probably win.. Oh well, though. We'd be in just as much crap as we would be with Bush.. Atleast now we can say America really is owned by the jews

Jun 8, 2004, 08:04 AM	#16
malkor DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 123 Rep Power: 0	He was born in Aurora, Colorado. His father was born in Massachusetts. His grandfather was from Austria-Hungary (now Czech Republic). It is not possible for one to run for President of the United States if one is not born there. Please get your facts straight, and ease up on the obvious anti-semitism.

Jun 8, 2004, 08:04 AM	#17
Proper Gander DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 138 Rep Power: 0	only a native-born US citizen can be President. ...and America is "owned" by Americans, taxpayers that is

Jun 8, 2004, 08:17 AM	#18
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	Hmm... I'd need to see some valid proof stating that. I've heard the "Colorado" bit, and had it shot down before my eyes with some substanial proof. I don't know a WHOLE hell of a lot about the man, aside from his ethnicity, and presidential "goals". We're all entitled to making some mistakes, and stupid comments, and for all I know, this could have been one. But, you didn't provide any evidence backing up your claim, so I'll stand behind my knowledge until I get some cold hard evidence that the person is, infact, a US citizen. Also note: I am in no way, shape, or form anti-semitic. I simply do not like the workings of our government, their zionist agendas, and the jews blatant promotion of anti-white racism. If I didn't turn on the TV, and see all of this multi-cultural crap, and then be slapped in the face by some guy talking about how we're all equal, how everyone should support everyone's views, and then, at the end, "WE MUST STOP INTOLERANCE!" I mean, COME ON! You say, "Love everyone, love this that, and the other. Love your neighbor regardless of race, BUT HATE THE HECK OUT OF THE NAZI ASSHOLES, NO MATTER WHAT!" And, don't get me wrong. I am not "nazi" by any means. I do not support National Socialism, or a "master" race. However, I do support the preservation of my OWN race, and for whatever reason, that still leaves me labeled a "nazi". I don't get it, but I don't really care, either. I've got more important things to worry about than what people will call me tommorow. Just so long as I live, and stay out of jail, it's been a good day. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040518-1.html http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3774005.stm http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/kashrut.htm http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=2758 http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...802077&fid=942 http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=9442&TagID=2 http://www.bahraintribune.com/Articl...9&CategoryId=5 Last edited by JoyStick; Jun 8, 2004 at 08:36 AM.

Jun 8, 2004, 08:29 AM	#19
bird chest DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 454 Rep Power: 0	well anyways back to Reagan.

Jun 8, 2004, 08:45 AM	#21
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	It's all a big grey area as far as the precidency goes... There's no telling what deceitful acts go on that NO ONE has a clue about. I highly doubt myself, or anyone else, for that matter, mailing in JK's birth certificates would change anything, though. Oh, and yeah.. The religious types. They're.. emm.. yeah..

Jun 14, 2004, 11:43 PM	#22
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Lol I think we've found ourselves our genuine resident Nazi.... All forums must have them I guess. I know people sometimes accuse me of playing the race card (well one guy who seems to say a lot of quite racist things does anyway) but this guy definitely looks like the genuine article. The only small problem is that his views are so whacked out and so 'out there' that I doubt anyone can take them seriously. Really to be honest I personally wish he would leave - because every time he opens his mouth he forces a thread to descend into absurdity and worthlessness. I enjoy a good debate as much as the next guy - but I'm not going to waste my time talking to some skinhead neo Nazi with a genuinely poor grasp on history and current affairs. Everything he says is about 'race this' and 'ethnicity that' and about the Jews and the 'Jewish conspiracy.' I mean common, this is 2004 not 1934. The world has moved on from all that crap. I recognize his diatribe from quite a few white supremacists sites I have read. I don't think I'm alone in speaking both for the left and the right of this forum, in saying that that kind of garbage isn't welcome here. Anyhoo as for Reagan, it's sad he's dead. But at 90+ years old, I think he had a pretty good innings. He did a lot of cool things in his life - of which becoming President was just one. GJ Last edited by raid517; Jun 15, 2004 at 01:18 AM.

Jun 15, 2004, 12:03 AM	#24
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Lol... Let's not over play it... I had a hard enough time getting my head around some forum members accusation that Kerry was a French spy - but that he may be a Nazi sympathizer too? Like I said, with people like this around threads can quickly become very silly. I know you're only joking Blue - but it is a measure of how stoopid this forum is becoming. GJ

Jun 15, 2004, 12:58 AM	#26
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Erm... Sounds a bit Like a Nazi manifesto to me... 'Puny, annoying weak,' racially inferor... 'Exterminate them!' Erm... 'him!' GJ

Jun 15, 2004, 01:06 AM	#27
malkor DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 123 Rep Power: 0	Did someone say something? bzzzzz.....

Jun 15, 2004, 01:47 AM	#29
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Na... Don't worry ZD... In this case I don't think you're even nearly in the same league... This guy has spent the last few days on the forum spouting what pretty much amounts to classic fascist ideology. It's not much of a surprise to me that you can't see it, since it requires some appreciation of the history of some of the things that are being said. I won't even try to press you on your understanding of Nietzsche, because I'm pretty sure you don't even know who he is. Equally I won't ask you about what you feel are the true roots of German paganism - since an understanding of both of these are required to appreciate what the concept of National Socialism really was. In a sense Nazism was a much purer much more intellectual ideology than the simple right wing politics of modern America - but it was no less poisonous or destructive because of it. I think what you are and what he is are very different things - unless of course anti-semtism and genuine white Anglo Saxon/white supremacy are things that really do appeal to you. You are certainly a member of the extreme right. However the the American extreme right and the German extreme right are really very different animals. The German extreme right was for example motivated by many ideals and philosophical theories that the American right fundamentally lacks. Neither are very admirable. But certainly history has shown that one has proven at least once to be much more corrupt and destructive than the other. In this instance however I would think carefully before you decide who you want to align yourself with. This is the kind of mud that is guaranteed to stick. GJ Last edited by raid517; Jun 15, 2004 at 02:11 AM.

Jun 15, 2004, 02:20 AM	#30
~~JoyStick~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 160 Rep Power: 0	Wow, sounds like I touched some nerves.. I can't believe this is actually being said.. Sounds like some of you assosciate some things with things that ought not be assosciated with.. Whatever the case, I'll "chill out" on the "racism/nazism" I'm being accused of, and get down to posting some good old truth. 123 million jewish people died in WWII. What, you don't believe me? You damn nazi! Iraq blew up Israel fourty times, and they must be murdered off the face of this earth. America is completely cool, and 100% dedicated to it's citizens. The fact that they're neglected is a sign of love. Illegal Immigrants are the reason America is able to function today. Without them, we would be a pile of dust. Honest, and if you say otherwise, you're a NAZI! I hope this clears my name. 's a shame that a person looking into things because they just aren't adding up is called a nazi, but whatever. You're you, and I'm not you, so I don't really care. Oh, I almost forgot... Jews are the superior master race, and I, just a lonely goy am nothing but a piece of cattle that happens to look like a human being. "Goyim are made to look like humans so that the jews need not be served by beasts"