Kerry, the big phony

Falstaff · Aug 5, 2004, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Whether you like or dislike Bush or Kerry, this is worth reading.

Regardless of your political affiliations, many have been incensed at the accusations that John Kerry made about the conduct of those he said he served with in Viet Nam when he testified before the Senate many years ago. Those men who served with him are now finally speaking out. Comments below.

Subject: FW: John Kerry's shipmates speak out

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"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.

We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."

-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth .

"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the! ! Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."

-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth .

"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"

-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired) .

"Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our colleagues who served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or ever again. Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less."

-- Andrew Horne .

"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."

-- Jeffrey Wainscott .

"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.

It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. We lost the war at home ... and at home, John Kerry was the Field General."

-- Robert Elder .

"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe the things that are described happened.

Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded. I was the first..."

-- Joseph Ponder .

"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.

Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."

-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired) .

"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.

Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."

-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired) .

"We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions."

-- Barnard Wolff .

"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid... collateral damage.

When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities."

-- David Wallace .

"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.

In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."

-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired) .

"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the Navy units.

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That conference never happened..."

-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired).

"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.

This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."

-- William Shumadine.

"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "

-- Richard O'Meara .

"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"

-- Steven Gardner .

"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.

All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."

-- Robert Brant .

"I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews killing cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as charged by John Kerry, both in his book and in public statements. Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions.

I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure of the proof of his claims."

-- James Steffes

Guidoo · Aug 5, 2004, 05:56 AM

Aren't election years fun.....lol

This is from a book being released titled "Unfit for Command" Check out www.swiftvets.com

The following is from the about page at the site.

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Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is a tax exempt non-partisan public advocacy "527" organization

For those of you who don't already know a "527" organization is simply a political mouthpiece.
Much like Moveon.org. They (527's) are simply a way around the campaign finance reforms. While
Swiftvets may not be associated with the Bush campaign..they are spending money on tv adverts
to paint Kerry in a bad light. Much as Moveon does to Bush. The whole catch about 527 organizations is that they cannot mention their preffered politician in their add. So about the only
sort of add they can run is a negative add about the opponent.

One of the founders of Swiftvets is John Oneil. He is the only vet....until now to challenge Kerry.
The history of Oneil and Kerry reaches all the way back to the Vietnam War. They had public arguments/debates around the alleged atrocities taking place during the war. ONeil along with a pair of co-authors is releasing the book "Unfit for Command".

Jeff...I know from your posts that you don't think much of Kerry....that your opinion (and you have a right to it) . But anyone that believes what comes out of a 527 to be the truth is a damn fool.

Guido

ToshiroOC · Aug 5, 2004, 07:41 AM

The thing is, all of these people speaking out against him weren't in the same boat as Kerry - those who were in his boat believe in him and are helping him. Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman may have been a great man, but he also wanted to tear down the separation between church and state and also likely never met Kerry in Vietnam once, and so I don't believe he can be a true judge of Kerry. Others among the quoted seem to hold Kerry's pacifism against him, without having any personal experience with Kerry with which to base their comments - though I won't pretend I can comment either about the alleged 'atrocities' in Vietnam mentioned by both sides. I fail to see how people in the military who disagree with Kerry's political path after the war speaking out prove Kerry to be a phony.

kp59583 · Aug 5, 2004, 12:35 PM

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Originally posted by ToshiroOC
The thing is, all of these people speaking out against him weren't in the same boat as Kerry - those who were in his boat believe in him and are helping him. Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman may have been a great man, but he also wanted to tear down the separation between church and state and also likely never met Kerry in Vietnam once, and so I don't believe he can be a true judge of Kerry. Others among the quoted seem to hold Kerry's pacifism against him, without having any personal experience with Kerry with which to base their comments - though I won't pretend I can comment either about the alleged 'atrocities' in Vietnam mentioned by both sides. I fail to see how people in the military who disagree with Kerry's political path after the war speaking out prove Kerry to be a phony.

If you read what was said some where in the boats with him. Some were in charge of some of his missions. I don't know if you were in the military (I was). You get to know whats going on in other companys and who are the good officers and who are not simply by listening to what people say about them. If most of the time different people say the same thing about an officer it probably true.

What I've read about his fellow swift boat officers is that only 1 supports him. There were 2 but one stopped for some reason.

The reason he's a phony is because he touts himself off as a war hero, but how can you use being a war hero when you leave your fellow men in combat as you run away due to a technocality after 4 months.(IE 3 purple hearts that 2 may have been self inflicted by accident) Then come back to the US and protest the war for your own political ambitions.

Falstaff · Aug 5, 2004, 04:15 PM

I was also in the military for some time, and I am a sailor, and knew some folks that were "Brown Water Navy", Kerrys alleged heroism was rewarded only with three purple hearts and some praise, but he was also admonished as well, but remains unscathed, much like Kennedy did, allowing his PT boat to be struck unawares in the middle of the ocean when he should have been more careful. I am "old school" and care little for the litany of his fellow officers and crew, in fact his crew have spoken up, I recall a radio program in Virginia on NPR or national public radio, if you served in the swift boats or in any capacity in the swift boat force as it were, you were gonna take some shrapnel, the VC routinely shoot from the river banks, as well as the protracted engagements that would occur. The real "shit" was encountered whilst supporting special forces troops. The South Vietnamese were loath to go North up the MeKong river because even their own people would shoot at the boat crews. In that capacity Kerry may have earned some "cool" points. But cannot rise above the status of veteran in my book. His crew should enjoy the acolades and be rendered with the same "brush" that his picture was painted with, for many of them stayed, and earned the bronze star, and numerous other awards, but because they were enlisted, and not in the same political machine that Kerry was, they are largely forgotten. John Kerry went to Vietnam to earn a medal or two, and stayed long enough to get one. He oiled his political machine in the US with the blood of his fellow sailors and the reports of alleged atrocities that he participated in. The Vietnam war was ugly no doubt, and fruitless, but Kerry maximized the whole experience to his benefit, and slapped his fellow veterans in the face. Many of whom proudly served and did not share his views. If John Kerry thinks he spoke for all his men and those of the Brown Water Navy he was sadly mistaken. further, if a superior cannot vouch for the character of his subordinates or has rendered a negative characterization, you can bet it has validity. John Kerry is a phony, pure and simple. He earns my respect for going to Vietnam, but he would have enjoyed far more respect falling in the line of duty rather than turn the whole cistern of anti war sentiment back on his fellow sailors, so I say to Hell with John Kerry, and his politics, but I grudgingly admit his participation. But as a Kennedy Clone, with his nose firmly embedded in John Kennedy's rectum and the family's rectum, he has earned my contempt. The east coast blue bloods have played the Kennedy hand much too long, that gambit is stale and offers nothing new to the political enviornment. Superimpose the bio of Bush and Kerry, and I think you will see that at least Bush didnt slap Vietnam veterans in the face.

~~bannerad~~ · Aug 5, 2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kp59583
If you read what was said some where in the boats with him. Some were in charge of some of his missions. I don't know if you were in the military (I was). You get to know whats going on in other companys and who are the good officers and who are not simply by listening to what people say about them. If most of the time different people say the same thing about an officer it probably true.

What I've read about his fellow swift boat officers is that only 1 supports him. There were 2 but one stopped for some reason.

The reason he's a phony is because he touts himself off as a war hero, but how can you use being a war hero when you leave your fellow men in combat as you run away due to a technocality after 4 months.(IE 3 purple hearts that 2 may have been self inflicted by accident) Then come back to the US and protest the war for your own political ambitions.

To suggest that Kerry's Purple Hearts are not deserved is to suggest that most people whom reveive this reward don't deserve them. The majority of people who receive them are not heros, just victims of happenstance. The term "hero" is over used today, everybody thinks everyone who fights in a war is a hero, this is such BS. I agree getting wounded in action does not make you a hero, by far. But at least Kerry fought in a war, unlike Bush whoms record is shady at best, like everything concerning him.

Falstaff · Aug 6, 2004, 01:30 AM

Kerry is not a hero, and he hasnt reported for duty since his last day in the military, I am sure he keeps a gold framed portrait of Kennedy somewhere and drinks at toast or two to him. Kerry is trying to be a Kennedy clone, and senator Kennedy will kill his chances at the presidency....ah the irony

ToshiroOC · Aug 6, 2004, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kp59583
If you read what was said some where in the boats with him. Some were in charge of some of his missions. I don't know if you were in the military (I was). You get to know whats going on in other companys and who are the good officers and who are not simply by listening to what people say about them. If most of the time different people say the same thing about an officer it probably true.

What I've read about his fellow swift boat officers is that only 1 supports him. There were 2 but one stopped for some reason.

The reason he's a phony is because he touts himself off as a war hero, but how can you use being a war hero when you leave your fellow men in combat as you run away due to a technocality after 4 months.(IE 3 purple hearts that 2 may have been self inflicted by accident) Then come back to the US and protest the war for your own political ambitions.

Planning on joining PLC once I get to college, personally, but I'm not quite there yet

Fair enough. I won't pretend that Kerry is some magnificent war god from above by any means - just I don't see some of the criticism against him as valid. Some of it likely is, but as always, this sort of thing is always be fuzzy - was he a good man or a medal-grubbing bastard? Was Bush a good man or a coward? Either way, we end up with a choice of two evils for president, which is a shame.

kp59583 · Aug 6, 2004, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bannerad
To suggest that Kerry's Purple Hearts are not deserved is to suggest that most people whom reveive this reward don't deserve them. The majority of people who receive them are not heros, just victims of happenstance. The term "hero" is over used today, everybody thinks everyone who fights in a war is a hero, this is such BS. I agree getting wounded in action does not make you a hero, by far. But at least Kerry fought in a war, unlike Bush whoms record is shady at best, like everything concerning him.

("While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom. )

A little piece of shrapnel that causes a scratch is not a wound.

wicastawakan · Aug 6, 2004, 04:01 PM

A purple heart is to be awarded for an injury inflicted by the enemy. Self inflicted splinters don't count. You also don't insist you get the award as JK did. Maybe he justifies it as inflicted by the enemy by supporting the communists/N VietNam.

Unfortunately politics & opinions don't always hold honesty and/or truth. Election years stink.

Falstaff · Aug 6, 2004, 04:09 PM

Kennedy lost his ship, and should have been at the helm or on the quarterdeck when the little wooden boat was cut in two by the Japanese destroyer, Kerry may have sustained his "owys" while engaged with the enemy, but his crew deserved better, they stayed. Kerry went to Vietnam to get medals, and then slapped his fellow veterans in the face when he came back. His aspirations may have been noble, but when the conflict became too morally objectionable he bailed out. He volunteered for the duty, volunteered for the missions, and then he took an enormous crap on his fellow sailors, F*&K John Kerry, I wont acknowlege his tiny contribution, when so many brave and valiant have gone before him, and many more since. The East Coast Blue bloods can keep him, and the horse he rode in on...
Americans will see right through John Kerry on election day. Whether anyone thinks Bush cannot speak properly or makes lots of Foopahs, at least he didnt lie about his contributions to the military. His father paid dearly, and so did his family, the Bush lineage is above reproach, can we say the same about Scary Kerry. Emperor Claudius once said "Let the worms crawl out of the mud". We shall soon see.

~~bannerad~~ · Aug 6, 2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
Kerry is not a hero, and he hasnt reported for duty since his last day in the military, I am sure he keeps a gold framed portrait of Kennedy somewhere and drinks at toast or two to him. Kerry is trying to be a Kennedy clone, and senator Kennedy will kill his chances at the presidency....ah the irony

I agree that Kerry is probably not a "hero", but if you discredit him as a hero because of him not deserving a Purple Heart you must also discredit many whom have received it. Getting wounded does not make you a hero, so unless there are other circumstances for which others have received this medal, then they are all not heros. Then again a lot of people consider that one who fights in a war is a hero.

~~bannerad~~ · Aug 6, 2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kp59583
("While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom. )

A little piece of shrapnel that causes a scratch is not a wound.

I'd like to see where this quote is from.

And BTW, technically a scratch is a wound.

~~bannerad~~ · Aug 6, 2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
Kennedy lost his ship, and should have been at the helm or on the quarterdeck when the little wooden boat was cut in two by the Japanese destroyer, Kerry may have sustained his "owys" while engaged with the enemy, but his crew deserved better, they stayed. Kerry went to Vietnam to get medals, and then slapped his fellow veterans in the face when he came back. His aspirations may have been noble, but when the conflict became too morally objectionable he bailed out. He volunteered for the duty, volunteered for the missions, and then he took an enormous crap on his fellow sailors, F*&K John Kerry, I wont acknowlege his tiny contribution, when so many brave and valiant have gone before him, and many more since. The East Coast Blue bloods can keep him, and the horse he rode in on...
Americans will see right through John Kerry on election day. Whether anyone thinks Bush cannot speak properly or makes lots of Foopahs, at least he didnt lie about his contributions to the military. His father paid dearly, and so did his family, the Bush lineage is above reproach, can we say the same about Scary Kerry. Emperor Claudius once said "Let the worms crawl out of the mud". We shall soon see.

WHAT contributions?

Falstaff · Aug 6, 2004, 04:15 PM

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry insisted on being awarded his first Purple Heart in Vietnam even though his injury amounted to no more than a "fingernail scrape," his commanding officer at the time now says.

Retired Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard tells the Boston Globe that he can still recall Kerry's wound, and that "it resembled a scrape from a fingernail," the paper said.

"I've had thorns from a rose that were worse," Hibbard insists.

Still, the former Navy man remembered that Kerry insisted on receiving a Purple Heart for the wound he said was incurred during a Dec. 3, 1968 skirmish with Viet Cong near Cam Ranh Bay.

"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of shrapnel," Hibbard told the Globe. "People in the office were saying, 'I don't think we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his palm."

Much to Hibbard's chagrin, Kerry persisted in his quest for a war decoration for the scratch.

"I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever you want,'" Hibbard said. "After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know how."

Kerry's campaign refused to say whether he remains certain that his skimmer boat had come under fire or whether he recalls his superior officer raising doubts about whether he was entitled to the Purple Heart.

While a Kerry aide provided a copy of a medical report showing treatment for the wound in question, The Naval Historical Center "could not locate a copy of the original card for the incident," the Globe said.

Kerry was awarded two additional Purple Hearts for subsequent wounds that have also been described as minor. He then invoked a little-used regulation that entitled a triple Purple Heart winner to return to the United States.

Former Sen. Max Cleland, a Kerry supporter who lost three limbs in Vietnam, was never awarded a Purple Heart.

Guidoo · Aug 6, 2004, 05:43 PM

For all of you jumping on the JK is a phony bandwagon check this out.....

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McCain condemns anti-Kerry ad

Calls on White House to follow suit

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.

"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad.

Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts.

Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000.

"I wish they hadn't done it," McCain said of his former advisers. "I don't know if they knew all the facts."

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, "I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad." (Special Report: America Votes 2004)

Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, "I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt."

The White House and Bush-Cheney campaign did not address McCain's call that they repudiate the spot, though a Bush spokesman said the campaign does not question Kerry's highly decorated war service. McCain is co-chair of Bush's campaign in Arizona.
'Old wounds'

In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor campaign against McCain in the South Carolina primary, helping Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's supporters have never forgiven the Bush team.

McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because "it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal."

"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

McCain himself spent more than five years in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp. A bona fide war hero, McCain, like Kerry, used his war record as the foundation of his presidential campaign.

The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. Three veterans on Kerry's boat that day -- Jim Rassmann, who says Kerry saved his life, Gene Thorson and Del Sandusky, the driver on Kerry's boat, said the group was lying on all fronts.

They say Kerry was injured, and Rassmann called the group's account "pure fabrication."

The leader of the group, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry's boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry's. The group claims that there was no gunfire on the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from a muddy river in the Mekong Delta and that Kerry's arm was not wounded, as he has claimed.

"What we have is a fabrication that led to Kerry getting his Bronze Star and his last Purple Heart," said Thurlow, who said he commanded a swiftboat near Kerry's.

***********************************

edit.. link to story Here

How many of you are ready to dispute John McCain on a matter of Honor.....An honored war vet
.....respected public servant.

This same type of stunt was pulled on McCain during his GOP primary run in 2000. The ads run at that time portrayed McCain as week on veterans affairs and that he somehow aided and comforted the enemy during his time as a POW or was mentally unstable because of it.
His opponent ??? George W. Bush......

I am not saying Bush is responsible for either of these attacks......there is no proof of a link to GWB for either. Just an odd coincidence.

kp59583 · Aug 9, 2004, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bannerad
I'd like to see where this quote is from.

And BTW, technically a scratch is a wound.

For a 2 year old but not a real man. When I was in the military in 73, there were a lot of Vietnam vets still in. Some of them had real wounds. I remember one guy in my platoon that was in tank when it was hit by an RPG. The RPG penetrated the armor and hit a Willie Peter round. Everybody in the tank was killed except him. The whole right side of his body from his head to his feet was one big scar like his skin was melted. He was still serving his country. Thats a real wound.

Falstaff · Aug 10, 2004, 05:03 AM

I went through Lejune in 77, we had lots of people with deep scars and they didnt wear medals either, some were injured by boobie traps in the line of duty and they earned several purple hearts, but they didnt brag about it, or use it as a crutch either, I would have more respect for Kerry if he just came out and said he used his Vietnam experience for political clout rather than an viable contribution to the team he served and commanded back then. I have served in two conflicts, and Kerry is the closest thing to female genitalia that I can calculate based on his accounts and the accounts of his men at the time. I take into consideration the fact that he is trying so hard to be John Kennedy and say with some measure of satisfaction that he is indeed imulating the Kennedy we have all learned to know...lol

amduser · Sep 6, 2004, 01:41 AM

yes mr kerry stabbed his fellow shipmates in the back. 500,000 someodd men and women in uniform were labeled as war criminals by his selfserving testimony. he thought then he was on the right side of history and now it comes back with a vengeance. i hope he gets what he deserves.

OldBuzzard · Sep 6, 2004, 06:22 PM

Well, bailing out early was probably the smartest thing he ever did. By a number of accounts, he was something of a 'Cowboy', and as some of us that were around in that era know, there were 'Cowboy Ell Tee's' that got fragged.

Also, the Purple Heart is awarded for wounds AS A RESULT OF ENEMY ACTION. Lots of GI's get injured in a warzone for reasons other than enemy action, and they never are awarded the Purple Heart. From all accounts (including Kerry's own diary and book) there was no enemy action when he got the scratch from his own grenade, so that one at least was bogus.

I think that the guys in the other boats are believable, and you have to understand that these boats operated as a unit. They were almost always in sight of each other, much like a tank platoon, or a flight of fighter bombers.

Aug 5, 2004, 07:41 AM	#3
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	The thing is, all of these people speaking out against him weren't in the same boat as Kerry - those who were in his boat believe in him and are helping him. Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman may have been a great man, but he also wanted to tear down the separation between church and state and also likely never met Kerry in Vietnam once, and so I don't believe he can be a true judge of Kerry. Others among the quoted seem to hold Kerry's pacifism against him, without having any personal experience with Kerry with which to base their comments - though I won't pretend I can comment either about the alleged 'atrocities' in Vietnam mentioned by both sides. I fail to see how people in the military who disagree with Kerry's political path after the war speaking out prove Kerry to be a phony. __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Aug 5, 2004, 04:15 PM	Thread Starter #5
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I was also in the military for some time, and I am a sailor, and knew some folks that were "Brown Water Navy", Kerrys alleged heroism was rewarded only with three purple hearts and some praise, but he was also admonished as well, but remains unscathed, much like Kennedy did, allowing his PT boat to be struck unawares in the middle of the ocean when he should have been more careful. I am "old school" and care little for the litany of his fellow officers and crew, in fact his crew have spoken up, I recall a radio program in Virginia on NPR or national public radio, if you served in the swift boats or in any capacity in the swift boat force as it were, you were gonna take some shrapnel, the VC routinely shoot from the river banks, as well as the protracted engagements that would occur. The real "shit" was encountered whilst supporting special forces troops. The South Vietnamese were loath to go North up the MeKong river because even their own people would shoot at the boat crews. In that capacity Kerry may have earned some "cool" points. But cannot rise above the status of veteran in my book. His crew should enjoy the acolades and be rendered with the same "brush" that his picture was painted with, for many of them stayed, and earned the bronze star, and numerous other awards, but because they were enlisted, and not in the same political machine that Kerry was, they are largely forgotten. John Kerry went to Vietnam to earn a medal or two, and stayed long enough to get one. He oiled his political machine in the US with the blood of his fellow sailors and the reports of alleged atrocities that he participated in. The Vietnam war was ugly no doubt, and fruitless, but Kerry maximized the whole experience to his benefit, and slapped his fellow veterans in the face. Many of whom proudly served and did not share his views. If John Kerry thinks he spoke for all his men and those of the Brown Water Navy he was sadly mistaken. further, if a superior cannot vouch for the character of his subordinates or has rendered a negative characterization, you can bet it has validity. John Kerry is a phony, pure and simple. He earns my respect for going to Vietnam, but he would have enjoyed far more respect falling in the line of duty rather than turn the whole cistern of anti war sentiment back on his fellow sailors, so I say to Hell with John Kerry, and his politics, but I grudgingly admit his participation. But as a Kennedy Clone, with his nose firmly embedded in John Kennedy's rectum and the family's rectum, he has earned my contempt. The east coast blue bloods have played the Kennedy hand much too long, that gambit is stale and offers nothing new to the political enviornment. Superimpose the bio of Bush and Kerry, and I think you will see that at least Bush didnt slap Vietnam veterans in the face. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Aug 6, 2004, 01:30 AM	Thread Starter #7
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Kerry is not a hero, and he hasnt reported for duty since his last day in the military, I am sure he keeps a gold framed portrait of Kennedy somewhere and drinks at toast or two to him. Kerry is trying to be a Kennedy clone, and senator Kennedy will kill his chances at the presidency....ah the irony __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Aug 6, 2004, 04:01 PM	#10
wicastawakan DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ada, OK Posts: 10 Rep Power: 0	A purple heart is to be awarded for an injury inflicted by the enemy. Self inflicted splinters don't count. You also don't insist you get the award as JK did. Maybe he justifies it as inflicted by the enemy by supporting the communists/N VietNam. Unfortunately politics & opinions don't always hold honesty and/or truth. Election years stink. __________________ Clint

Aug 6, 2004, 04:09 PM	Thread Starter #11
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Kennedy lost his ship, and should have been at the helm or on the quarterdeck when the little wooden boat was cut in two by the Japanese destroyer, Kerry may have sustained his "owys" while engaged with the enemy, but his crew deserved better, they stayed. Kerry went to Vietnam to get medals, and then slapped his fellow veterans in the face when he came back. His aspirations may have been noble, but when the conflict became too morally objectionable he bailed out. He volunteered for the duty, volunteered for the missions, and then he took an enormous crap on his fellow sailors, F*&K John Kerry, I wont acknowlege his tiny contribution, when so many brave and valiant have gone before him, and many more since. The East Coast Blue bloods can keep him, and the horse he rode in on... Americans will see right through John Kerry on election day. Whether anyone thinks Bush cannot speak properly or makes lots of Foopahs, at least he didnt lie about his contributions to the military. His father paid dearly, and so did his family, the Bush lineage is above reproach, can we say the same about Scary Kerry. Emperor Claudius once said "Let the worms crawl out of the mud". We shall soon see. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Aug 6, 2004, 04:15 PM	Thread Starter #15
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry insisted on being awarded his first Purple Heart in Vietnam even though his injury amounted to no more than a "fingernail scrape," his commanding officer at the time now says. Retired Lt. Cmdr. Grant Hibbard tells the Boston Globe that he can still recall Kerry's wound, and that "it resembled a scrape from a fingernail," the paper said. "I've had thorns from a rose that were worse," Hibbard insists. Still, the former Navy man remembered that Kerry insisted on receiving a Purple Heart for the wound he said was incurred during a Dec. 3, 1968 skirmish with Viet Cong near Cam Ranh Bay. "He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of shrapnel," Hibbard told the Globe. "People in the office were saying, 'I don't think we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of shrapnel in his palm." Much to Hibbard's chagrin, Kerry persisted in his quest for a war decoration for the scratch. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever you want,'" Hibbard said. "After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I don't know how." Kerry's campaign refused to say whether he remains certain that his skimmer boat had come under fire or whether he recalls his superior officer raising doubts about whether he was entitled to the Purple Heart. While a Kerry aide provided a copy of a medical report showing treatment for the wound in question, The Naval Historical Center "could not locate a copy of the original card for the incident," the Globe said. Kerry was awarded two additional Purple Hearts for subsequent wounds that have also been described as minor. He then invoked a little-used regulation that entitled a triple Purple Heart winner to return to the United States. Former Sen. Max Cleland, a Kerry supporter who lost three limbs in Vietnam, was never awarded a Purple Heart. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Aug 6, 2004, 05:43 PM	#16
Guidoo Guido Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 134 Rep Power: 0	For all of you jumping on the JK is a phony bandwagon check this out..... ************************** McCain condemns anti-Kerry ad Calls on White House to follow suit WASHINGTON (AP) -- Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well. "It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush. The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict. "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad. Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero. The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000. "I wish they hadn't done it," McCain said of his former advisers. "I don't know if they knew all the facts." Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, "I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad." (Special Report: America Votes 2004) Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, "I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt." The White House and Bush-Cheney campaign did not address McCain's call that they repudiate the spot, though a Bush spokesman said the campaign does not question Kerry's highly decorated war service. McCain is co-chair of Bush's campaign in Arizona. 'Old wounds' In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor campaign against McCain in the South Carolina primary, helping Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's supporters have never forgiven the Bush team. McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because "it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal." "I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War." McCain himself spent more than five years in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp. A bona fide war hero, McCain, like Kerry, used his war record as the foundation of his presidential campaign. The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. Three veterans on Kerry's boat that day -- Jim Rassmann, who says Kerry saved his life, Gene Thorson and Del Sandusky, the driver on Kerry's boat, said the group was lying on all fronts. They say Kerry was injured, and Rassmann called the group's account "pure fabrication." The leader of the group, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry's boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry's. The group claims that there was no gunfire on the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from a muddy river in the Mekong Delta and that Kerry's arm was not wounded, as he has claimed. "What we have is a fabrication that led to Kerry getting his Bronze Star and his last Purple Heart," said Thurlow, who said he commanded a swiftboat near Kerry's. ********************************* edit.. link to story Here How many of you are ready to dispute John McCain on a matter of Honor.....An honored war vet .....respected public servant. This same type of stunt was pulled on McCain during his GOP primary run in 2000. The ads run at that time portrayed McCain as week on veterans affairs and that he somehow aided and comforted the enemy during his time as a POW or was mentally unstable because of it. His opponent ??? George W. Bush...... I am not saying Bush is responsible for either of these attacks......there is no proof of a link to GWB for either. Just an odd coincidence. Last edited by Guidoo; Aug 6, 2004 at 05:50 PM.

Aug 10, 2004, 05:03 AM	Thread Starter #18
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I went through Lejune in 77, we had lots of people with deep scars and they didnt wear medals either, some were injured by boobie traps in the line of duty and they earned several purple hearts, but they didnt brag about it, or use it as a crutch either, I would have more respect for Kerry if he just came out and said he used his Vietnam experience for political clout rather than an viable contribution to the team he served and commanded back then. I have served in two conflicts, and Kerry is the closest thing to female genitalia that I can calculate based on his accounts and the accounts of his men at the time. I take into consideration the fact that he is trying so hard to be John Kennedy and say with some measure of satisfaction that he is indeed imulating the Kennedy we have all learned to know...lol __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Sep 6, 2004, 01:41 AM	#19
amduser DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: heartland usa Posts: 45 Rep Power: 0	kerry? yes mr kerry stabbed his fellow shipmates in the back. 500,000 someodd men and women in uniform were labeled as war criminals by his selfserving testimony. he thought then he was on the right side of history and now it comes back with a vengeance. i hope he gets what he deserves.

Sep 6, 2004, 06:22 PM	#20
OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oberlin, OH Posts: 2,783 Rep Power: 145 System Specs	Well, bailing out early was probably the smartest thing he ever did. By a number of accounts, he was something of a 'Cowboy', and as some of us that were around in that era know, there were 'Cowboy Ell Tee's' that got fragged. Also, the Purple Heart is awarded for wounds AS A RESULT OF ENEMY ACTION. Lots of GI's get injured in a warzone for reasons other than enemy action, and they never are awarded the Purple Heart. From all accounts (including Kerry's own diary and book) there was no enemy action when he got the scratch from his own grenade, so that one at least was bogus. I think that the guys in the other boats are believable, and you have to understand that these boats operated as a unit. They were almost always in sight of each other, much like a tank platoon, or a flight of fighter bombers. __________________ When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY