Woman arrested after interrupting Laura Bush speech

Dom · Sep 18, 2004, 07:11 PM

HAMILTON, N.J. (AP) — A woman wearing a T-shirt with the words "President Bush You Killed My Son" and a picture of a soldier killed in Iraq was detained Thursday after she interrupted a campaign speech by First lady Laura Bush.

Police escorted Sue Niederer of Hopewell, N.J., from a rally at a firehouse after she demanded to know why her son, Army 1st Lt. Seth Dvorin, 24, was killed in Iraq. Dvorin died in February while trying to disarm a bomb.

As shouts of "Four More Years" subsided, Niederer, standing in the middle of a crowd of some 700, continued to shout about the killing of her son. Secret Service and local police escorted her out of the event, handcuffed her and placed her in the back of a police van.

Niederer was later charged with defiant trespass and released.

The first lady continued speaking, touting her husband's record on the economy, health care and the war on terror to those attending the rally in this suburban community of 90,000 people near Trenton.

Mrs. Bush made several references to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks during her speech. She said that many in New Jersey, including some in neighborhoods near the firehouse, lost family members that day.

"Too many people here had a loved one that went to work in New York that day," Bush said. "It's for our country, it's for our children, our grandchildren that we do the hard work of confronting terror."

http://www.usatoday.com/

digerati · Sep 18, 2004, 08:40 PM

No one forced him to sign that dotted line, you sign up for the benefits, you take the risk. I was very close to signing that dotted line, and I knew the possible outcomes.

Dom · Sep 18, 2004, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^_^

No one forced him to sign that dotted line, you sign up for the benefits, you take the risk. I was very close to signing that dotted line, and I knew the possible outcomes.

To what are you reffering?

Sandok · Sep 18, 2004, 08:56 PM

ahhhh the joys of getting arrested for nothing

ToshiroOC · Sep 18, 2004, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

To what are you reffering?

Joining the military, I would guess.

Dom · Sep 18, 2004, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToshiroOC

Joining the military, I would guess.

Ah, okay.

But perhaps her son died for nothing...which evidently he did. The war was because of WMDs, there were none. There's a difference between dying for a cause and dying for no reason.

A quote comes to mind, not sure how it went but it was something along the lines of: We will fight in wars. We only ask that you don't send us to fight for nothing.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 18, 2004, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Ah, okay.

But perhaps her son died for nothing...which evidently he did. The war was because of WMDs, there were none. There's a difference between dying for a cause and dying for no reason. [color=red](At least thats the way you guys see it, I guess insted of honoring them, that they died in vein the huh...)[/color]

A quote comes to mind, not sure how it went but it was something along the lines of: We will fight in wars. We only ask that you don't send us to fight for nothing.

the war as over....

#1. WMD's, substanteated:
He had a small amount weapons he sould have not had (by un sanction), materials, also he had duel use supplies and equipment, the will and the want to gain WMD. To date only a verry small amount of WMD was found. The contry none the less was loaded with chemial suits, and enough weapoms to arm every man worman and child with a RPG, little lone guns! Saddam sought to aquire WMD and if gained them had allreadly clamined he would use them. He also calmed to his neighbors that he had WMD. Foerign intelligece said he had WMD. For all we know he had WMD and just shiped it out to another country... like seria or iran. etc

#2. Terror, substanteated:
Terriost training camps, connections to al-quida, $$$ going to al quida, top alqudia leaders based in IRAQ. etc

#3. Freedom, substanteated:
the opressed, tortured people, massicured, slugterd by a brutal dictator

#4. UN Compliance, substanteated:
non-complaince with un resoultions, un failing to act due a few of it's members garenteeing a veto. To protect thier own special intrests, multi million dallor deals, and massive debts iraq owes then, that plus thier dependance on iqaqy oil. then add to that the oil for food scandle

Dom · Sep 18, 2004, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Neon_Cowboy

the war as over....

#1. WMD's, substanteated:
He had a small amount weapons he sould have not had (by un sanction), materials, also he had duel use supplies and equipment, the will and the want to gain WMD. To date only a verry small amount of WMD was found. The contry none the less was loaded with chemial suits, and enough weapoms to arm every man worman and child with a RPG, little lone guns! Saddam sought to aquire WMD and if gained them had allreadly clamined he would use them. He also calmed to his neighbors that he had WMD. Foerign intelligece said he had WMD. For all we know he had WMD and just shiped it out to another country... like seria or iran. etc

No WMDs were found. Show me your source.

Attacking a country because they may want WMDs is not a reason for war. Plenty of countries want them.

Chemical suits prove nothing; they might have been kept after the UN dismantled Iraq’s WMD capabilities after the first Gulf War.

Having enough weapons to arm a county’s people is no crime. The US has enough weapons to arm its entire people, should we bomb ourselves?

You do not know that any WMD were shipped out of Iraq. There's about as much proof of that as there is proof that Iraq currently has WMD.

If the US were really concerned about WMDs why did they not attack N. Korea first? We know they have weapons, we knew before the Iraq war.

Quote:

#2. Terror, substanteated:
Terriost training camps, connections to al-quida, $$$ going to al quida, top alqudia leaders based in IRAQ. etc

Again, where's your source? No connections have been found between Iraq and al Quaeda.

Quote:

#3. Freedom, substanteated:
the opressed, tortured people, massicured, slugterd by a brutal dictator

There are A LOT of countries without freedom. That is not an excuse.

Quote:

#4. UN Compliance, substanteated:
non-complaince with un resoultions, un failing to act due a few of it's members garenteeing a veto. To protect thier own special intrests, multi million dallor deals, and massive debts iraq owes then, that plus thier dependance on iqaqy oil. then add to that the oil for food scandle

The UN had special interests? You mean like the Bush's interests in making from the war?

The UN depends on Iraqi oil? So does the US.

MythicaL · Sep 18, 2004, 11:28 PM

I saw news that they let her go...

~~BMG_Cya=-~~ · Sep 19, 2004, 01:27 AM

Saddam was in non-compliance with several UN resolutions. That was the main reason for the war...not WMD's. Why do all the US haters and liberals always forget that? It's like a plague.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 19, 2004, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

No WMDs were found. Show me your source.

[color=red]CNN News, Fox News links.... again live TV i'm not looking for links i shouldn't need them in the first place. They found traning amounts of serian (very small), they intercpted a small amount mortars with seran heads wich people were selling![/color]

[color=red]I'd consider the radio active material they found that with a little work could be used to create dirty bombs. Did i mention the barrels had un inspection labels with out a suit [/color]

[color=#ff0000]The finding of the 9/11 commisio that Iraq DID in fact try to buy uranium... [/color]

[color=#ff0000]I even rember the early rumors that was reported in field by the gernal in harge that the frech had aided then in hideing WMD. Like I said a rumor. You talking to some one wo listens to cnn/fox news and surfs the web/ games most of of the day... [/color]

[color=#ff0000]The missles that rained down on kuait, again weaponms with ranges out side un rules.... [/color][color=#ff0000]The mobile chemical weapons labs that were unused.[/color]

[color=#ff0000]You ask for links sorry I don't read much polital stuff online unless it ca[/color]
[color=#ff0000]tches my eye to much bull. especally in print the media is mostly left wing liberals and there is bias in the meadia mostly in print. I'm going on Live discussions, reportings etc as they happen...[/color]

Attacking a country because they may want WMDs is not a reason for war. Plenty of countries want them.

[color=red]They did more then want they acted like they had them, the told thier niegbors they had them. They were actively working on a nucler program said defectors. Forieghn and local intelligence read that they had them. Of cousre there wasn't a smokeing gun but you don't wait for a bomb to go off [/color]

Chemical suits prove nothing; they might have been kept after the UN dismantled Iraq’s WMD capabilities after the first Gulf War.

[color=red]They were newer then that, why would they stock u and make suits for weapons they aren't supposed to posses.[/color]

Having enough weapons to arm a county’s people is no crime. The US has enough weapons to arm its entire people, should we bomb ourselves?

[color=red]Enough weapons to arm each man woman a child like rambo, weapoms are for war not peace. True if you want peace prepare for war but thats taking it over board.[/color]

You do not know that any WMD were shipped out of Iraq. There's about as much proof of that as there is proof that Iraq currently has WMD.

[color=red]Hmm it is on viable threoy though. Any of it neighbors would gladly take them of thier hands. you realize that Iraq has a landmass of calafornia. Not i'm going take a penny and go berry it out there if you don't find it then there were WMD in iraq LOL j/k no really it's like finding a nedle in a haystack. It's a large sandbox out there they could barry a whole city and never find it...[/color]

If the US were really concerned about WMDs why did they not attack N. Korea first?

[color=red]Becouse they have weapns allready that they would use warrent that would warrent a NUCLER WAR, you really wish a nuclaer war on N. korea, and the holicost ... that woulsd insue them and thier neighbors.[/color]
[color=#ff0000]They wer discussing nuclear retaliation! seriously talking about haveing to use nukes... that shoudn't come to pass. I faer that will open a padora's box that ends us all.[/color]

We know they have weapons, we knew before the Iraq war.Again, where's your source? [color=red]My source CNN / Fox news[/color]

No connections have been found between Iraq and al Quaeda.
[color=red]Yes, there were![/color]

There are A LOT of countries without freedom. That is not an excuse.
[color=red]I don't know, saddom was a especailly evil case... We had to do the job that clintion didn't have the guts to finsh I guess.[/color]

The UN had special interests? You mean like the Bush's interests in making from the war?

[color=red]Like the owed millions/billions and millions/billions in contracts. Contries like France, germany, and russia (russia had just signed a big oil contact before it hit the fan). The dirty money flow from the food for oil program. The fresch wer patucally mad becouse they has spend decades getting connections and getting them to be good cutomers of french goods ETC. [/color]

The UN depends on Iraqi oil? So does the US.
[color=red]Not anywere naerly as much as contries like france germany and russia [/color]

To add to that do you think he had WMD in say desert storm?

Dom · Sep 19, 2004, 05:05 AM

Neon, until you offer proof of what you are talking about, there is no point in discussing what you are claiming.

Dom · Sep 19, 2004, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMG_Cya=-

Saddam was in non-compliance with several UN resolutions. That was the main reason for the war...not WMD's. Why do all the US haters and liberals always forget that? It's like a plague.

LOL. Yeah, okay.

OldBuzzard · Sep 20, 2004, 07:37 AM

Neon....two points:

1. Can you find some other color than RED ?? I use the default color scheme, and it's damned hard to read...especially if you are an old fart like me

2. You really can't argue with/persuade a liberal because they will never let FACTS interfere with their feelings/emotions.

Dom · Sep 20, 2004, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldBuzzard

Neon....two points:

1. Can you find some other color than RED ?? I use the default color scheme, and it's damned hard to read...especially if you are an old fart like me

2. You really can't argue with/persuade a liberal because they will never let FACTS interfere with their feelings/emotions.

LOL. I accept facts as fact only when proven.

~~HawK~~ · Sep 20, 2004, 08:22 AM

Personally I think the Woman had every right to protest, for Bush never needed to go to war, he just needed more popularity to get re-elected, and for that reason, and for the weapons industry gains, your boys have to die..
They are sacrificing your children for their personal gain!!
which is the lowest.. (for any "side") but has been used for ages..High time people are start to realise that fact.
But sometimes I think that they are better of dead than wounded, for noone cares a bit about them, their life ruined, left alone with sometimes a pension; to small to live on and to big to die from.. while the "white collars" use that kind of money in an hour.
Time for these "big boy's" start fighting their own battles using their own children instead of sacrificing other peoples children...

digerati · Sep 20, 2004, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawK

Personally I think the Woman had every right to protest, for Bush never needed to go to war, he just needed more popularity to get re-elected, and for that reason, and for the weapons industry gains, your boys have to die..
They are sacrificing your children for their personal gain!!
which is the lowest.. (for any "side") but has been used for ages..High time people are start to realise that fact.
But sometimes I think that they are better of dead than wounded, for noone cares a bit about them, their life ruined, left alone with sometimes a pension; to small to live on and to big to die from.. while the "white collars" use that kind of money in an hour.
Time for these "big boy's" start fighting their own battles using their own children instead of sacrificing other peoples children...

No one forces them to enlist. If it was a draft, then it'd be different.

Dom · Sep 20, 2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^_^

No one forces them to enlist. If it was a draft, then it'd be different.

Perhaps her son was in the National Guard? There has been mention of a so-called "backdoor draft". Is there any validity in that claim? I'm not aware of what National Guard duties entail, do they require you to go to war?

ToshiroOC · Sep 20, 2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^_^

No one forces them to enlist. If it was a draft, then it'd be different.

What if he was a stoplossed officer?

~~HawK~~ · Sep 20, 2004, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^_^

No one forces them to enlist. If it was a draft, then it'd be different.

That is a bit shortsighted don't you think, being prepared to defend your country
is another thing then screw up someone elses country (for whatever reason)
because someone need to be re-elected, or worse to make profit, and then leave the country after it's been wrecked,
so you can come back again when it's election time again..or any other reason
the USA does seem to have a habbit of leaving them in a mess. as history has proven..
..Korea,Vietnam, Afghanistan, Irak, and some more Country's

And how many enlisted are really old enough to realise what war is all about,
has anyone really prepared them to the sight of seeing your buddies cry or die??
thinking war is a computer game, just reload and try again? and that still is not a reason to Kill them for someones monetary profit.. 'couse that is what it's all about.

bug77 · Sep 20, 2004, 11:37 AM

Jeez guyz... I'm from Romania. We had Ceausescu over here until 1989. And while his regime was nowhere near Saddam as cruelty, 90% of the population would have been glad if US would invade Romania in order to rid us of that regime.
As for Kerry, I have yet to see a leftist doing something else than telling the masses what they want to hear.

kp59583 · Sep 20, 2004, 12:13 PM

For one thing when you say I do to enlistment its with the understanding that you may have to give your life for your country whether its a popular war or not. Anyone who or there family that does not understand this is a fool. I was in the military and understood it and my son's in the military and understands it. He volunteered for Iraq. He's home now.

kp59583 · Sep 20, 2004, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Perhaps her son was in the National Guard? There has been mention of a so-called "backdoor draft". Is there any validity in that claim? I'm not aware of what National Guard duties entail, do they require you to go to war?

National Guard units have been in every major war weve had.

kp59583 · Sep 20, 2004, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kp59583

National Guard units have been in every major war weve had.

The Guard doubled the size of the Regular Army when it was mobilized in 1940, more than a year before Pearl Harbor, and contributed 19 divisions to that war, as well as numerous other units including Guard aviation squadrons. More than 138,000 Guardsmen were mobilized for Korea, followed by numerous smaller mobilizations for the Berlin Crisis, Vietnam, and numerous strikes and riots at home. Approximately 63,000 Army Guardsmen were called to serve in Desert Storm, and in the decade since then Guardsmen have seen a greater role than ever before -- conducting peacekeeping in Somalia, Haiti, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Following the attacks of September 11, 2001, more than 50,000 Guardsmen were called up by both their States and the Federal government to provide security at home and combat terrorism abroad.

merlinxi · Sep 20, 2004, 01:24 PM

I will never join the military or the marines. One of my good friends did, he is now in iraq for no reason and could die because of a freak accident, with all the tention their now. It pisses me off, becaues of Oil we are their. OIL! Unless their is some super secret reason I don't know about. Marine rereuiters must of called me 20 times in a week. I said them NO NO NO. Quite annoying. I said to him "Believe me, you don't want me in there!" Once you sign up, you sign your life away, FOREVER. They have you by the balls, and I am sorry, to get a college education in a possible return for your life, is not worth it to me. I will go ahead and pay my loans, and not risk dieing over college.

Merlin

Matth · Sep 20, 2004, 03:31 PM

With 20:20 hindsight, and let's hope it can bring down both Bush and Blair, it was NOT a "just war", it was "just a war", a case of being seen to "do something" after 9/11.

Bush said "jump", and Blair said "how high?" - and may the pair of them rot in hell, or at least fail to get another term.

Someting I said to myself at the time, and it's turning out that way now - "The place is going to be like Northern Ireland ... at the peak of the troubles".

They won the war, but the tricky thing now is to win the peace!

GutterPunk · Sep 20, 2004, 05:12 PM

Im sorry but her son joined the military knowing that he could go to war that was his choice its sad he died but his mom cant complain obviously she didnt stop him from joining

Sep 18, 2004, 11:28 PM	#9
MythicaL I like computers. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In front of a monitor Posts: 3,399 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	I saw news that they let her go... __________________ Always knew I didn't belong in this world. I wasn't made for this. But I'll never forget those who betrayed me, and those who never failed my trust.

Sep 20, 2004, 07:37 AM	#14
OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oberlin, OH Posts: 2,783 Rep Power: 145 System Specs	Neon....two points: 1. Can you find some other color than RED ?? I use the default color scheme, and it's damned hard to read...especially if you are an old fart like me 2. You really can't argue with/persuade a liberal because they will never let FACTS interfere with their feelings/emotions. __________________ When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Sep 20, 2004, 12:13 PM	#22
kp59583 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 121 Rep Power: 0	For one thing when you say I do to enlistment its with the understanding that you may have to give your life for your country whether its a popular war or not. Anyone who or there family that does not understand this is a fool. I was in the military and understood it and my son's in the military and understands it. He volunteered for Iraq. He's home now. __________________ ATHLON XP 2600+ K7N2G-LISR 512 SAMSUNG PC2700 ACER DVD DRIVE memorex DVD recorder WD 80GIG 7200 HARDDRIVE AUDIGY2 SOUND CARD 4 FANS, ANTEC 350W PWR SUPPLY ATI 9700 PRO

Sep 20, 2004, 01:24 PM	#25
merlinxi The Paranoid Cook Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 655 Rep Power: 0	I will never join the military or the marines. One of my good friends did, he is now in iraq for no reason and could die because of a freak accident, with all the tention their now. It pisses me off, becaues of Oil we are their. OIL! Unless their is some super secret reason I don't know about. Marine rereuiters must of called me 20 times in a week. I said them NO NO NO. Quite annoying. I said to him "Believe me, you don't want me in there!" Once you sign up, you sign your life away, FOREVER. They have you by the balls, and I am sorry, to get a college education in a possible return for your life, is not worth it to me. I will go ahead and pay my loans, and not risk dieing over college. Merlin __________________ 700 Watt Toughpower Cable Management Power supply -- Asus P55 LE Motherboard -- Intel Core i7 860 2.8GHZ Quad Core -- 6Gb Dominator Ram DD3 8 Latency Timings -- Windows 7 64bit -- Gigabyte GTX470 Superclocked Video Card -- 1.5 TB Hard drive, 1TB hard drive, 250GB Hard drive, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Sep 20, 2004, 05:12 PM	#27
GutterPunk I = Greatest Dood Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 5,949 Rep Power: 71	Im sorry but her son joined the military knowing that he could go to war that was his choice its sad he died but his mom cant complain obviously she didnt stop him from joining __________________ Rock On \m/ Thank you Mousey for the Sig! --------------- Intel Core2Duo E6660 (3.4GHZ) ~ Tuniq Tower 120 ~ Enermax Galaxy 1000W ~ Corsair Dominator @ 1090MHZ 5-5-5-15 (OCZ XTC Modded Cooler)~ EVGA 8800GTX W/ HR-03 Plus 120MM ~ Asus DVD-RW LiteScribe ~ LG DVD-RW ~ Corsair Voyager 2GB ReadyBoost Drive ~ Vantec Nexus Fan Controller ~ ThermalTake Armor 25CM fan ~ Personal Finance Blog: Dent Your Debt

Sep 18, 2004, 07:11 PM	#1
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Woman arrested after interrupting Laura Bush speech HAMILTON, N.J. (AP) — A woman wearing a T-shirt with the words "President Bush You Killed My Son" and a picture of a soldier killed in Iraq was detained Thursday after she interrupted a campaign speech by First lady Laura Bush. Police escorted Sue Niederer of Hopewell, N.J., from a rally at a firehouse after she demanded to know why her son, Army 1st Lt. Seth Dvorin, 24, was killed in Iraq. Dvorin died in February while trying to disarm a bomb. As shouts of "Four More Years" subsided, Niederer, standing in the middle of a crowd of some 700, continued to shout about the killing of her son. Secret Service and local police escorted her out of the event, handcuffed her and placed her in the back of a police van. Niederer was later charged with defiant trespass and released. The first lady continued speaking, touting her husband's record on the economy, health care and the war on terror to those attending the rally in this suburban community of 90,000 people near Trenton. Mrs. Bush made several references to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks during her speech. She said that many in New Jersey, including some in neighborhoods near the firehouse, lost family members that day. "Too many people here had a loved one that went to work in New York that day," Bush said. "It's for our country, it's for our children, our grandchildren that we do the hard work of confronting terror." http://www.usatoday.com/

Sep 18, 2004, 08:40 PM	#2
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	No one forced him to sign that dotted line, you sign up for the benefits, you take the risk. I was very close to signing that dotted line, and I knew the possible outcomes.

Sep 18, 2004, 08:56 PM	#4
Sandok DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 9,472 Rep Power: 0	ahhhh the joys of getting arrested for nothing

Sep 19, 2004, 01:27 AM	#10
~~BMG_Cya=-~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 718 Rep Power: 0	Saddam was in non-compliance with several UN resolutions. That was the main reason for the war...not WMD's. Why do all the US haters and liberals always forget that? It's like a plague.

Sep 19, 2004, 05:05 AM	Thread Starter #12
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Neon, until you offer proof of what you are talking about, there is no point in discussing what you are claiming.

Sep 20, 2004, 08:22 AM	#16
~~HawK~~ Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,092 Rep Power: 0	Personally I think the Woman had every right to protest, for Bush never needed to go to war, he just needed more popularity to get re-elected, and for that reason, and for the weapons industry gains, your boys have to die.. They are sacrificing your children for their personal gain!! which is the lowest.. (for any "side") but has been used for ages..High time people are start to realise that fact. But sometimes I think that they are better of dead than wounded, for noone cares a bit about them, their life ruined, left alone with sometimes a pension; to small to live on and to big to die from.. while the "white collars" use that kind of money in an hour. Time for these "big boy's" start fighting their own battles using their own children instead of sacrificing other peoples children...

Sep 20, 2004, 11:37 AM	#21
bug77 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: around Posts: 792 Rep Power: 0	Jeez guyz... I'm from Romania. We had Ceausescu over here until 1989. And while his regime was nowhere near Saddam as cruelty, 90% of the population would have been glad if US would invade Romania in order to rid us of that regime. As for Kerry, I have yet to see a leftist doing something else than telling the masses what they want to hear.

Sep 20, 2004, 03:31 PM	#26
Matth Flash Banner Hater Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 3,426 Rep Power: 93 System Specs	With 20:20 hindsight, and let's hope it can bring down both Bush and Blair, it was NOT a "just war", it was "just a war", a case of being seen to "do something" after 9/11. Bush said "jump", and Blair said "how high?" - and may the pair of them rot in hell, or at least fail to get another term. Someting I said to myself at the time, and it's turning out that way now - "The place is going to be like Northern Ireland ... at the peak of the troubles". They won the war, but the tricky thing now is to win the peace!