ToshiroOC

Lets not make this personal. Please.

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

BWC

Iraq's oil fields, they own them, not us. Iraq is still a small percentage of our consumption.

We owe the French a debt? How do you figure? lets add up the score. revolutionary war.. france +1 They try and come back and take some of it back a few years later france -1. World war 1 france -1 World war 2 France -1 Oil for food causing veto of us wanting to go into Iraq France -1 Ok thats France -3 But on the plus side they gave the world Zidane so well spot them +2. But they're still in the hole. We have unfortunately had strained relations with the French for many many years, with both Democratic and Repuplican presidents.

And yes France has on the record said that no matter who is elected they will *not* send troops to Iraq.

And why is it that when the New York Times, Nation or MSNBC give out a fact its ok, but fox is all lies. I think as adults we can tell when a fact is being presented. It may be being presented with the commentators spin, but a fact none the less...and we have to see through the spin. fox is currently the only channel where you get "the other side". Sure you have to dig through some spin, but at least we get some arguments.

There is a link to Alquida in Iraq, or dont you read or listen to the news (or are they lying?)? Why would our Commanders on the ground be telling us we're fighing alqueda?

The wmd's didnt happen, but guess what EVERYONE, including 2 of the countries (germany and russia) that didnt go with us due to "conflicts of interest* (cough oil for food, cough) thought that he had, and was going to distribute wmds.

Wmds... there is a *huge* difference between the US having nucs and Iraq having them. If you dont see that... sorry.
Hypocrisy, everyone in the world is a hippocrit in one way or another...

We can go into domestic policy too if you want.... Kerry's all wrong there to

raid517

Well it is literally impossible to argue with someone who uses cheap gutter press news headlines as their sole arguing base. We have a quite famous (in this country) tabloid newspaper who once printed a story with the headline 'Elvis Lives In an Igloo on the Moon!'

Now while most people could laugh and not take this seriously, Neon seems like the kind of guy who is prepared to accept this sort of story as *fact* - just as he has reprinted every other headline (although sometimes not very accurately) he has ever heard or read here - no matter how ridiculous it might seem - providiing it fits with his own pre-existing political bias. (Which appears to be that mainly that he hates the French).

At least as someone said, he is a trier - and he does try his hardest. But man alive it would be nice to just have a decent debate without neon jumping in and quoting endlessly from things you know you just said, and following it all up with that one page thick raft of nasty third rate tabloid quotes he uses to answer everything anyone could possibly have to say. It's like the dunk guy who who butts in on the coverastion you are having with your friends in a resturant and who starts drooling and burping on your shoulder and giving his *opinion* about everything he thinks is wrong with the world.

It's not much fun - and kind of embarrasing really.

Oh well, point made. He did start these threads at least I guess. And this place wouldn't be quite the same without him.

GJ

raid517

Yeah BWC, we know you hate the Fench too. But what that actually has to do with anything, is something of a complete mystery. Hating the French has nothing to do with why no WMD's were found - or why it might be possible that eventually Bush (or Kerry) might have to intruduce some form of draft. In fact the only thing hating the French has to do with anything is that you hate the French.

I think we get that already.

GJ

SaberZ

lol a nuke is a nuke. Only difference is who is leading the nation. And frankly I personally think Bush is an idiot, probably on equal lines to Saddam.


You have to also admit we arent the brightest nation in the world either, we just have the biggest balls, and we arent really using them correctly.

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pr0digal jenius

i agree....i hate how we blow countries to rubble for havign the same weaponry we have

BWC

You know I hate the french? Wow... thats the kind of logical leap that is rampant in your posts... You have neither met me nor have any idea how I feel about anyone. That would be like me saying I know you love Michael Moore for the truth he tells ...

I certainly dont hate anyone, if you read my post I was simply pointing out there there is no debt owed by the US, (nor do I believe by the French to the US) relations have been unfortunately been strained for *many* years for both democrat and republican presidents, they have on the record stated no matter who is president they wont send troops, and that Zidane is the man...

Can you feel the hate?

And thd draft... CRIKEY... come on now? There will be no draft...even in a time of war, we TURN PEOPLE AWAY from the military and are KICKING PEOPLE out if we dont need their rating and they dont want to switch ratings. The draft was proposed by democrats in the senate and now the Kerry campain is using it to scare poor young people. And apparently its working for it to even have been brought up here.

Oh and the 2 divisions that Kerry wants... I seriously doubt we'll have to have a draft for that either... The picture just isnt correctly being portrayed in the media. While some recruiting stations for one branch may have a bad stretch, others in other areas make up for it etc... There just is no need for a draft..

The "stop loss" and "back door draft" are *part of the contract you sign*. Do you know when American casualties rise? Ill let you in on a military secret, its when we rotate troops and newbies come in and vets rotate out. We dont want to rotate unless we have to, inevitably new people die more than experienced people. This is the sole reason we dont rotate more than we do. Its *not* the numbers of toops we have available to us. It may suck that these troops have to stay in theater for longer than we would like, but it saves lives.

Is it even a possiblity that the Kerry camp is lying and the Bush camp is telling the truth? It mystifies me that everyone that is so against Bush thinks everything he does is a lie, and for selfish reasons, but even with proof of kerry's lying, he is telling the absolute truth... I would suggest that you have to wade through it on both sides. Not just the Bush side.

And once again, everyone, democrat and republican thought we needed to go when we did. Everyone was wrong.


raid 517..Now this has nothing to do with anything, its an honest question.. is it possible you got me mixed up with someone else with that hating french comment?

ColdPenguin

Regarding what u call a "false" draft rumor from democrats.
Draft Registration boards have been staffed and reopened under the Bush administration, allowing a draft to be carried out within 1 or 2 months of its approval.

raid517

I don't know. That is a question for you to answer. Ultimately however, whatever way you do feel about the French, or the UN for that matter, it is clear that it has little to do with the many mistakes that were made.

Whether or not the French play ball is irrelevant - we in this country have had to deal with the French since the start of WWII - we could say many things about them - and it isn't all mutually good.

However we have managed to manitain largely cordial relations with them - which has served us well over the longer term - particularly when it came to what was needed in order to defeat longer held and older enemies. Call it an entente cordial if you will. We have found a way of working with them which has enabled us for a long time to persue many "multual interests".

That is what I worry that Bush has squandered - not just this, but the very idea of a larger scale international alliance itself.

Bush told everyone - gave clear notice indeeed - that from now on America was to be regarded as boss. You try telling someone they have to subdugate themselves to the interests of a foreign power, that despite the expression of their own democratic will (given that as I said, some Americans tend to forget that they are not the only free people on this Earth) and see how long they will be prepard to tollerate it. The answer is clear, or at least it is clear to me - and that is, not very long.

My point about winning any large scale prolonged stuggle is that this can only be achieved through genuine alliances and a strong international partnership - not by telling everyone that from this point on if they wanted to win any favour they would have to become accustomed to kissing your big fat hairy greasy butt.

So you want to win this war on terror? Well let's do it then! But let's do it as real partners - let's do it like we did in the cold war, lets work together to share resources, to share intelligence to pursue those mutual interests that we do have. Just flicking everyone off like so many fleas - particularly those who have stood by you all these years - is unlikely to win you anything.

And this is where I think Kerry is stonger. I think he can see this, whereas Bush and his friends clearly cannot.

I do not agree with Kerry on many issues - but restoring this level of normality and cooperatuion with the rest of the world is I think one issue on which I feel we could see eye to eye. You may hate the UN, you may hate beurocracy, you may think America is the greatest nation on Earth. Utimately you are entitled to think whatever it is you may care to think - but the reality stands that any kind of large scale division, particularly of the kind inspired by the Bush Administration - is dangerous - and it is not just dangerous to the world, but dangerous to the interests of the United States itself.

Perhaps your love of politics - or your love of this one man is so great that you just cannot see this. If this is true - and if enough of your country men are inspired to think like you, then all I can say is that I fear that this is already a defeat for your nation - and for the world at large.

If we cannot fight evil together - and fight it on equal terms then ultimately it is only our enemies who will stand to profit.

Right now you are lost in the idea that having the most bombs and the most guns is all it will take to win any struggle - whereas I have never belived this, not even for as much as one second.

This is not what the history of the last 60 or more years has shown.

So let us see who is right shall we? Let's see how long and how strong America is when she really does try to stand alone. And whether the draft happens or not, let's see ultimately exactly who pays the bigger price.

Best wishes,

GJ