BWX

Interesting reading...


There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month
January.....

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of
January!

That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn
country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state
the following.

FDR... led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per
year.

Truman... finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never
attacked us.
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy... started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never
attacked us.

Johnson... turned Vietnam into a quagmire. Vietnam never attacked us.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per y ear.

Clinton... went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia
never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan
and did nothing.
Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the two years since terrorists attacked the US President Bush has ...

liberated two countries,
crushed the Taliban,
crippled al-Qaida,
put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a
shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own
people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the
Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51 day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less
time than it took Hillary Clinton to find her Rose Law Firm billing
records.

It took less time for the 3rd I nfantry Division and the Marines to
destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the
police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick, drowning Mary Jo.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in
Florida!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!

The Military moral is high!

The biased liberal media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the
facts.

If you can read this thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English thank a soldier.

raid517

This is where this sort of stuff looses it for me sorry. What kind of association is that to make with something that happend more than 40 years ago? That is classic propganda - which I suspect you have found and simply reprinted here.

I think justifying this war in terms of a body count is particularly sick. Have there been 3000 murders in Detriot (or whatever the casulty count is now) since the start of the war in Iraq? You try telling all the families of these guys that their deaths were just a statistical blip.

And 35 murders in Detroit in 1 month? Freaking hell, how can you say this and then say your President is doing a great job? Indeed why worry about the war in Iraq when you appear to have a war going on within your own borders?

Many of these other countries you refer to were much bigger than Iraq. They also had a large number of conventional forces at their disposal - hence their ability to generate a much larger body count.

In many instances (except perhaps for Vietnam - which I still don't agree with) there was clear evidence of wrong doing - or at least the people that were attcked were very clearly guilty of what we accused them of - unlike Iraq where many of the accusations that were made turned out to be baseless.

The Korean war was a United Nations war - not an American war.

Germany declared war on the US first and not vice versa. Germany also sank several US ships shortly after declaring war - so the US administration had no option but to follow suit. (So as in many instances in the past, perverting history is unlikely to help your cause).

johnson massively increased US commitment in Vietnam - only to have a war that should by all other standards have been winnable subsequently negotiated away - ultimately resulting in the most humiliating defeat in US history - a defeat that occured under the watch of a very Republican administration.

The search for chemical and biological weapons (and all other WMDs) in Iraq has officially ended and has resulted in what is essentially the last report that will be compiled on this subject, namely the Dalfour report - which states clearly that almost beyond question there are no remaining major stock piles of WMDs left in Iraq - and that Saddam's WMD capability was comprehensively dismatled after the war in 1991.

The war in Iraq is still on going - it is far from finished yet.

Al Quada is also hardly defeated. While there may have coincidentally been few Al Quada atacks within the borders of the US - attacks on US forces, US allies and US interests outside of the US remain at their same previously high levels. Not least within Iraq iteslf - where before the war there was little or no significant Al Quada activity. (Not that there ever was that many inside the US before - I mean we are only talking about 1 attack on average about every 3 or 4 years - which always makes me wonder quite why people are running about so scared?).

Military moral can't be that high with reports of troops being asked to stay on in Iraq well beyond their normal allocated tour of duty. Indeed there are continuing reports of shortages - including body armour and basic supplies - some so serious that the service peronel themselves have in some instances engaged in open rebellion Rebeliions of this nature are always the best indication of low moral.

In any case as you can see 'the facts' are very different from what some people might attempt to have you believe.

GJ

mkk

I'm sure that might be so, but where are those perticular facts you're talking about? Don't just tease us with unrelated and partly confused citations, but give us the real thing.

raid517

Some people wouldn't know reality if it walked up and slapped them in the face.

GJ

The_Neon_Cowboy

yep poor librals, democrats, far left/right wingers

__________________

raid517

Well in the spirit of fairplay I would like to shake everone's hand here and wish them good luck....

I hope whoever your candidate might be that he does his very best for you and your country.

Best regards,

GJ

Senor_Mota

What a shame...it looks like he posted this straight out of a forwarded e-mail. It's propaganda like this that dilutes the minds of the already ignorant American. It's like all the "Support Our Troops" ribbons you can buy - it's just another contribution to a lie. I can honestly say that it doesn't matter what war or military or even political situation we're talking about...it's all just another scheme set up due to one country's personal beliefs. I can't even imagine why anyone in their right mind would take the "truth" the American government releases to its people so seriously.

Wake up, for you've been sleeping all along.

A quote from aperfectcircle -
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums.

__________________

BWX

What ignorant country are you from?

pr0digal jenius

America is ignorant as a whole BWX...no need to deny it

YAYitsAndrew

It's not a fair comparison, past wars were more even between sides in terms of technology or firepower. In this case it's like the alien invasion in war of the worlds. There's been a couple unlucky casualties but on the whole one side is totally pwning.

Better watch out for that afghan germ warfare!

__________________
"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism
In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

BWX

No, I do deny it- yeah there are some morons just like everywhere in the world, but in general Americans are smart and well informed. We have a free press unlike most of the world which have government controlled TV and press that only let what they want through.. mostly anti-American BS.. Lets see, the most powerful and affective society since the beginning of time made up of a bunch of stupid ignorant people? I doubt it. It's funny that people that have the most rights afforded them by their government do the best- I think if every country in the world protected the personal rights of their citizens as much as the US does, the world would be a much better place, and people would be more informed.

mkk

Let's break that down. The claim (A) is that "in general Americans are smart and well informed". Argument (B) "free press" does not automatically lead to an either smart or well informed population. I also hear republicans regularly complain about US media not being perticularly free due to a supposed rampant liberal domination. At the same time as the flagship of freedom going by the name of Fox News resembles an upgraded and highly modernised version of cold war era east german state television. Argument (C) that a "powerful and affective society" means (A) to be true holds no logical connection. After that it's downhill and off center with claims of the country of USA being the one where personal rights were best protected in the world. While that could be a topic to argue over even though citizens of at least a dozen other countries would disagree, it has little or nothing to do with (A).

pr0digal jenius

If we were well informed, BWX, would the PATRIOT Act have passed?

BWX

I define ignorance as the state of being uninformed.

I guess that sums up your response, no need trying to argue with someone who is so ignorant that they actually believe this..

(B) I never said it did.
The rest of your post is so unorganized it doesn't really deserve a response.




Have you ever heard of the Lackawanna Six? They were a few miles away from where I live. If not for the Patriot act they would be planning terrorist activities right now.. I guess you were "ignorant" of that fact?


Think what you want, but if you think the US as a whole is "ignorant" as you say, then you are what you accuse them of being. Or are you just talking about people who voted republican?

raid517

You mean this six.

More here:

http://www.altpressonline.com/module...rticle&sid=192

Or since some people here think that every contradictory source is a leftist plot, take your pick from Google

Unless you want to say that Google is part of a lefist conspiracy?

That is the problem with the patriot act - because it means that you can now be deemed guilty by the mere act of association.

Up until September the 11th 2001 it was seen as normal practice for young men of fighting age to engage in a Jihad (which is simply another way of saying 'personal stuggle'). There are many ways they can do this, some can do it by fasting, some by devoting themselves to a period of prayer and contemplation, some can do it by going to University and learning to be doctors so that they can become better citizens - others can do it by attending training camps, where they learn basic skills that are meant to equip them as men to face the harsher struggles of daily life. It is very like national service - and although it is by no means compulsory, it is seen as a tradition - and many families could be said at times to apply some degree of pressure on their young men to follow this tradition.

However it was largely the Americans themselves who were responsible for encouraging the existance of the training camps in Afganistan - because rather than become directly involved in the conflict in Afganistan in the 1980's, the CIA openly instigated programs to import young Arabs of fighting age from all over the Mid East. This program was really very successful - as were the Arabs efforts against the Soviets. (Although not as successful as the Arabs or the Americans eventually assumed).

However after the Russians left at the end of the 80's - and American interest in the region dwindled shortly thereafter - this left a large force of Arab fighters still in Afaganistan - who rapidly became very pissed off at the idea that they had been promised so much by the Americans and that the Americans had simply used them - and once their usefulness had come to an end they had opted to abandon them. This inevitably led to a geat deal of resentment. This is also the point at which Ossama Bin Laden (despite whatever he says in his latest video) was first approached by a small number of other particularly extremist Arabs and offerd a position of leadrship within their group in exachange for financing various operations against those that they felt had sold them short originally.

10 years on, you wind the clock forward and we all know the rest of the story - but the end result is that the Americans now see it as highly inconvenient that these guys are still traveling to Afganistan and are still recieving training from the guys that they trained originally. So they storm into Afganistan, shut the training camps down, round up all the Arabs that they initially imported and all the guys like those in the above story too and toss them in a specially designed camp, where they face the prospect of staying perhaps indefinately - without and due recourse to proper legal representation or a trail.

Some gratitude hu? Help us out and once we have finished with you we will drop you like so much garbage - and maybe later we will come back round you all up toss you in prision without charge and thow away the key.

No wonder some of these guys are so pissed at you.

GJ

mkk

What Fox News resembles or not is not actually something that one could believe or not believe.

It follows the structure of your preceding post in a very linear fashion. Though you say they weren't really arguments meant to support your claim(A) so I had simply read more into it than there was.