France & The Ivory Coast

Necrosis

What do you all think about it?

Necrosis

You will notice all the "American Bashers" are leaving this one alone because it's NOT America. Interesting isn't it?

Sandok

I find it sorta sad... I mean, I understand the politcal reasons but that ain't the way to do it (and ya, france no one cares )

raid517

I don't know very much about it. As far as I know it is a former French colony - and these guys rose up against the French white inhabitants and encouraged the local people to attack them and to destroy their businesses. So the French sent some 'peace keepers' who promptly wiped out the country's air force and military and put the rebellion down.

I don't know what to make of it. A similar thing happend in Zimbabwe when their President Robert Mugabe ordered that the white farmers in that country should be forcibly evicted and the land divided among the poor black population..

Of course the outcome of that was a disaster - as a lot of these farms were very large and had until then been very well run - by people on the whole who were very specialised in producing the vast quantities of food that the country depended on to sustain itself.

When this land changed hands those farms that were divided up among poor people reverted to a system of subsistance farming - which was simply incapable of producing the volumes of food needed to feed the population. The other concequence however was that very few of these farms really were divided up among the poor - as instead it was the corrupt political leadership itself who took over most of them. (Those they didn't take for themselves they gave out as 'gifts' to friends and relatives etc.). These people also lacked the skills, training and experience needed in order to make the farms work efficiently - so this had an even bigger impact on the country's ability to feed itself. Since farming was Zimbabwe's biggest export market, this in turn caused the economy to collapse virtually overnight. With the collapse of the ecconomy all services began to suffer and the population slowly began to starve. To this day this situation has not been resolved for them - as Robert Mugabe continues in his obsessive opression of his own people in his brutal attempts to stay in power.

I imagine the same is very much true of the Ivory Coast.

If the question is should the French be doing what they are doing? Then my only answer is I don't know. Should the French leave their people there to be massacred and should they allow the people of the Ivory Coast to destroy their own economy - and in so doing perhaps cause yet another horrific African crisis? Or should they act and give the impression to the world that they are not so far away from their old imperial roots as some people might think?

Really I don't think the French care very much at all.

At least in the case of the US in Iraq you guys didn't have a large number of your own nationals there that were being threatend with a massacre. (Well you didn't used to have anyway). I guess if you had this it would have made the decision to go in much easier for you too.

Like I said I don't know that much about it. Sadly one African crisis begins to seem like so many others after everything that has happend in that region in its recent history.

GJ

raid517

Anyway you accuse us of not caring. But it's not exactly like you express a view of your own.

Do you even have one?

GJ

Necrosis

Oh I have one. If what you say is true why not pull their people out, and just let the there people rot? I hope you're sitting down? It's my opinion the French think if the U.S. can do it why can't we? So I can't really say a whole lot about though I personally had nothing to do with the forces of my country being Iraq.

Necrosis

I have many opinions about many different things. However, I don't beat them into the ground, or make personal judgements on people if they disagree.

raid517

And what, you are implying that I do? Like what?

Aren't you by saying that trying your best to make it personal?

At least I have a opinion - and it itsn't one fed to me by a bunch of bloody comic book tabloids.

GJ

raid517

I don't know if it's that easy. Sure a lot of French people were evacuated. But some of them have been there for several generations and have built up businesses and lives there that would be impossible for them to disentagle themselves from. The Ivory Coast (from my own reading of it's economy) relies mainly on French generated money.
Read more.

So you would be asking for people to give up their livelyhoods too - which all in all is a togh thing to do. Moreover simply abandoning the country and letting the population rot is a pretty damn heartless thing to do. Some of the local politicians may be corrupt, but this hardly means that it is a good or decent thing to do to punish the entire population for the actions of a few local warlords by effectively leaving them all to starve to death. Of course if this is what the French did do, they would face international condemnation - and people would blame them for having turned their backs on the locals and for having done nothing.

GJ

Necrosis

Ha, ha nice try!

It seems I sparked something there. I just mean sometimes if someone doesn't agree with you, you... well pass judgement on them.

You provided me with an example.

At least I have a opinion - and it itsn't one fed to me by a bunch of bloody comic book tabloids.

How do you know where/what I read as far as my sources go?

You assume therefore you lose. BTW, coverage of France's invasion here has been a last page event. Just thought you would like to know.

Necrosis

Okay so let me understand the logic here. They depend on Frech money, but also want to kill French people. I wonder how much livelyhoods matter more than their own lifes. How do we really know what is going on there anyway?

raid517

I make no judgments of anyone. It just seems that a lot of people here do get much of their information from what would under most conditions be commonly referred to as the tabloid press. That is a judgment that more people than me feel able to make. In this country it is easy to identify what most people understand to be the tabloid press. I know too that in the US the situation is not disimilar - and there at at least 3 or 4 publications (or 'newspapers') that I know of that fit this catagory very well.

The bottom line is you judge me and I will judge you. You get what you give. It seems to me a lot of you guys would rather just not have an opposing perspective at all. What this says about your claims about liberty and freedom of speech is certainly a topic worth considering.

I'm tempted to ask on the back of what paper - but I won't. To be honest it doesn't vastly suprise me. I often watch ABC and CNN - and really it is quite incredible how little time they spend talking about world events. It is almost as though in some way events beyond the USA - and particularly those that do not directly relate to US interests abroad - somehow are non existant and meaningless to you. (Well not you personally perhaps).

I guess in some ways you broke the mold here - because in all the time I have been here you are probably the only American who has ever brought up a topic that did not in some way directly relate to America.

What i wonder does this say about your country?

GJ

bug77

Here's my opinion.
When nations in the British empire declared independence, they did that on friendly terms with England. They still have privileged relations to this day.
The French tried to do the same. Now we see their results.
Facts:
The French said they stand by the president in power. But when the rebels were rampant in the country, they did not interfere. So now, the rebels hate the French for their support for the president, while the rest of the population hates the French because their lack of implication allowed rebels to control half of the country.
Just a glimpse of the politics all 'american bashers' agree with.

raid517

Yeah that's about it. They want the French money AND they want to get rid of the French too. It kind of sucks I guess. But I expect it's a similar situation to Zimbabwe - these people think it will be simple. All they have to do is take over the French run farms and businesses - and then they can be as rich and happy as the French appear to be. Except that they do not have the first conception of the amount of technical know how that is needed to run these farms and businesses efficiently. The French of that country are essentially the technocrats - the educated class. They are the ones who have traditionally gone to University, who have built the banks, who have managed the services - such as schools, roads, hospitals and railways and so on. The ecconomy depends on them to keep things running.

Whether it is right or wrong that they should be there originally, the fact is that the economy has prospered under French know how. So you take the French out of the equation and one can be reasonably certain of the outcome.

It is a catch 22 situation. At the moment they have decided that they will try to suppress the uprising. But at the end of the day if a population decides that you are unwelcome there, it is generally only a matter of time before they succeed in getting you to leave. The Brits found this out, the French found this out (and are still learning it) and maybe one day the Americans will come to learn this too.

History is a great teacher. It would serve us well if we paid more attention to it more often than we do.

GJ

raid517

I didn't say I agreed with it. And I'm not an American basher. I probably am a Bush basher (which has an altogether nicer ring to it) and a bit of a NeoCon basher too - but just because I disagree with the views that many of these people have does not make me anti-American. Who says you have to be a repubican to be a good American? Who says you have to agree with the views of the American republican party before you can be considered pro-American? I am pro American - just not all the parts of American society that you guys seem to admire so much.

GJ

Necrosis

In a weird way we actually do agree on this though I'm a bit more "Natural Selective" in my view points. To a point I understand what the forces of my country are trying to do. However, when is enough..enough? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I think there should be a dead line set for the Iraq forces to take over from us. We did what we sought to do but are now nothing but policemen patroling another country. I think Iraq's should fight Iraq's; just have our forces patrolling the borders to keep out insurgents. How do you kill an infestation?

raid517

Mmm.. quite... But I would hardly call it an 'infestation'. If in the end they decide that they all don't want you, then they all don't want you. It's that simple. In the end it is their choice to make.

Referring to it as an infestation makes them sound like animals. They are really just people. And if the occupation becomes any more unpopular than it already is - if they decide they want you out - then like all people they have the right to make that desire known. If ultimately you guys refuse to leave peacefully and on a schedule which the majority of Iraqis would be happy with - then it might be hard to blame them for attempting to make you do it. We might not agree with their methods - but in the end it is their country. They should be allowed to call the shots - whether we agree with them or not. Of course if they did step out of line they would risk being hit again - but if they want you out, that very much is their own decision.

GJ

Necrosis

If it was that simple, and could be solved that easily why not put it up to a vote? Eventually occupation did end in Germany, and Japan after WWII. Germans, and Japanese did want the American forces to leave after a certain amount of time in which they did in one fashion or another. However, it appears we are now talking about two different things.

1. The Iraq's fighting with the insurgents that want the U.S. forces to leave.

2. The insurgents that are there just to kill U.S. forces or anyone that supports them.

In your logic it sounds like your saying that it's mostly Iraq's. Where were these people during Saddam's reign? Why didn't they rise up against him if they are so set against U.S. forces in a sense taking over their country? I can understand them being weary of the longevity of U.S. forces being stationed in their country. Personally speaking I don't know how thrilled I would be about foreign troops marching around my neighborhood. I just can't believe it's only the Iraq's causing the problem. If it were a general consensus of the Iraq's people that U.S. forces should leave; why would they be fighting along side U.S. forces? It just doesn't add up.

Another thing is what I'm saying also is they should call the shots. It's their country, and if they really want to be free yet be their own they're going to have to fight for it.

Some people are victims..some deserve to be.

raid517

No I'm not saying that it is the majority yet who want you to leave - but that as soon as some level of peace and security is restored this may well become the case. What I'm saying is that indeed historically this is very often the case. You see once a country reaches a certain level of peace and prosperity they begin to imagine that they are capable of running their own affairs - and they often begin to question why these foreigners are there - and why it is them getting rich and not the local population.

As crazy as it may sound - due to the relative dangers involved - most of these guys are probably just fighting for the money. The money they can earn in the US marines is likely to be far beyond anything they could get doing any other job in Iraq - and in a country where people still have homes and families to keep even this dangerous career can seem very atttractive.

Well that may very well be the case at some point in the future. If you guys don't move fast enough - and leave suitably quickly it could certainly end up like that. Elections are all well and good - but if you end up in a similar position to the French where you are seen to be proping up a government that is sympathetic to Western/American interests then a lot of people may be supicious about what and who any elected government really represents. Right now, like it or not, you guys still get to choose the candidates. So how democratic really is that? If some mad dog extremist stood for election, would you really allow it to happen - even if he was very popular with the majority of the local population?

Moreover it doesn't need a majority of the Iraqi population to take part in any uprising. All it takes is a significant minority. All you really need is enough people to be a constant thorn in the occupying forces side. Whether or not they have the full support of the population at large is largely irrelevant. It simply comes down to how long the occupiers are prepared to put up with the level of pain and disruption that these people can inflict. In this sense you could end up in the same position as the French, where the local people begin to blame you for both creating and failing to control the insurgents.

As for where the insurgents were during Saddam's time.... they were all there, but Saddam was particularly ruthless and extremely efficient at putting them down. I don't know if as an apparently civilised country, America is quite prepared to go to that far.

Not sure what you are saying here. It sounds slightly vicious.

GJ

violat3

glossing over again fade517 teh French never wiped out teh entire goverment Airforce they destroyed 2 Mig 21's after they bombed UN peace keepers which included teh French peace keepers teh French lost 14 men and 7 other peace keepers were killed from other nations when they were meant to bomb rebels that is how teh whole incident has unravelled

raid517

Why are you so rude? What exactly is your beef with me? Are you still pissed that I wasn't able to repeal the act of union for you?

All I know is what I read - and that is that the Ivory Coast Military were pretty pissed that the French had attacked them and destroyed their air force. I have no idea how big their military or airforce is - but I imagine it can't be very big - given that this is after all a relatively small West African country.

So what exactly am I glossing over?

And BTW my nick is raid517. For some odd reason you seem to keep mispelling it. Is your keyboard broken perhaps?

GJ

raid517

Here is the official BBC history of the conflict. If you want to bitch about it, take it up with the BBC.

GJ

violat3

dry your eyes son your teh ane that labeled meh anti - English when i have never posted about teh English


you generalise in every post min teh Ivory coast has more than two jet fighters only two were destroyed for bombing and killing UN peace keepers

i take it fade517 you were born without a sense of humour , you were teh first ane to label people anti English for being anti bruttish

raid517

Well I can still barely read what you are saying. But how about I call you Violate from now on? Whooptedoo for the Ivorian military if they only lost two planes. To be honest besides the story behind what is happening there, I don't really care how many planes were destroyed. As I said, if you don't like the account I gave, take it up with the BBC. You certainly seem better informed about it than they are.

You did rave on for quite a long time about the apparently brutal history of the English, and about how you despised the act of Union (although what that has to do with anything here I don't know) so it was easy to make an assumption that the English were not your most favorite people in the world. If I was wrong then I'm sorry. It would be nice though if you could make the effort to get off the subject of your relationship with the English (or the British) or your lack of it and try a little to stick to the topics.

Clearly you are upset about something, but harping on about it endlessly isn't helping anyone. Time to grow up and move on.

I've been quite reasonable and patient with you so far. But if you do have a personal gripe with me, might I suggest you take it up with a moderator or deal directly with me via PM or email? And if you don't want to do this, then tell us at least what your opinion is on this specific topic. It isn't about scoring points - it's about having a point of view - and regardless of your admirable grasp on numbers, this is something you have so far failed to do on any of these topics.

GJ

violat3

i never mentioned the English FACT i only mentioned the brutality of the "British Empire" you are more than welcome to quote any of my posts where i state any sort of anti English sentiments

raid517

Well you mean the Scots as well then? I mean presumably given that the British Empire never really reached it's hight until long after the Act of Union was signed, then the Scot's were up to their necks in this apprent river of blood that you speak of every bit as much as the English were? After all if we do want to start playing around with history, I could point you to several very prominant Scots who grew extremely rich directly through their associations and dealings with the British Empire. Indeed virtually all of the trade conducted in Scotland thoughout the mid 18th to late 19th centuary resulted from rich Scottish merchants trading directly with the colonies of the British Empire. And they weren't forced to take the money at the point of any gun either.

I personally think (well I'm quite sure) that the whole thing is very over stated. Sure there are unfortunate episodes in our combined history - but our American friends know quite a lot about that too (slavery and the holocaust of the Indians are among 2 of several we could bring up) - as does virtually every other developed nation on this Earth. The Scots are no different, their hands are not free of blood either. You're problem is that you just have some false romatic notion about how hard done by we all were. Well the truth be known we did a lot of it to ourselves. Why do we always need to look for someone else to blame? The world really has very little pitty for a sore looser.

Like I said, the need to move on passed quite a long time ago.

The way I see it, you either do what you can to catch up, or you might as well just butt out of the race.

GJ