Falstaff

Marine commits suicide by challenging police a young marine on leave in California is a statistic in war on the front and the war at home. He is not the first "snap" and demonstrate a 180 degree change in personality, commiting crime or confronting law enforcement and adding his name to the long list of young men and women that cannot endure another day in combat.
The U.S. military is attempting to screen out potentiol problems with combat psychosis among personnel returning from combat, but service people returning from leave or furlough represent the largest percentage. Decorated marines, soldiers and even sailors are jailed, shot or hospitalized after going into combat mode while back home visiting. I think it is high time the Pentagon access the real impact of Rumsfelds cost saving campaign in IRAQ, I hold him and his subordinates responsible for desperately high number of these home front casualties. I know for a fact the military is aware of the problem, but it is a numbers game, and I am sure that families that see the thousand yard stare in the eyes of their children returning from war, It is going to get worse. How many more will die at home after serving honorably in IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN. I hold Rumsfeld responsible for this.....

__________________

Frodo301

The truly sad thing is all the ones that will not snap but are having problems. Those individuals will more then likely not see any form of counseling or help until they are seperated from the military and hear a Veteran's Med Center nurse say, did you see combat while in service, are you feeling down today? By that time they have already lost/left their military career, and are speeding on a downhill slide of depression. I myself had adjustment problems after the 1st Gulf War and especially after Somalia. It was'nt until 3 or 4 years after I was out of the service that someone finally began to ask the right questions and I got the help I needed. I hate to see the process repeat itself with a new group of young men and women.

__________________
The greatest thing you'll every learn is to love, and be loved in return.

Dom

Crazy stuff.

The_Neon_Cowboy

No body Forced them to Volenteer!

__________________

Dom

What's your point?

Falstaff

I myself have seen people tore apart by cannon and machine gun fire, and watched people killed in an ambush and enjoyed the satifaction of prosecuting the threat and victory, but if I dwell on the finer points, the minutia of why we kill or who we choose to kill, I think you will find men and women looking back with overwhelming regret, people dont kill instinctively IMO, they must be forced or taught to kill.

__________________

Dom

People don't kill each other instinctively or don't kill instinctively, period?

Humans by nature or violent, that doesn't mean we are always that way or can't control our actions 99.9% of the time. I believe killing is instinctive - to all animals - whether the have conscience or not. We (humans) like all animals, with exception of few species, kill for food and protection. Clearly what differs us from other animals is our brains. It is our ability to reason why something should be done.

I believe animals (with exception of humans) see things in black and white, and I mean that figuratively. If an animals hungers it will instinctively kill. If an animal is threatened it will (as a last resort) kill. Once an animal is threatened enough it will kill - it can't just reason and stop - unlike humans. Humans can see things as black and white too, right and wrong, but they can also decide what's right and wrong, to their selves. They can also reason that wrongs aren't always wrong. That wrongs can be justified in certain situations, such as self-defense, and I do agree with this. Other animals, besides humans, can't kill unless it's instinctive, because they or their children are threatened enough. Yes, humans can kill for no reason and can be taught to kill, but it also can be instinctive.

It is really hard to say if killing someone in war is justifiable - even in self-defense. What I mean is if you join the military, you know you will probably have to kill one or more people. If someone points a gun at you in a situation of war and they're going to kill you if you don't kill them; it is self-defense to kill them first, at least technically. One could argue it's not, however. You did join and put yourself in the position to have to kill, it was a choice you made before you were in the situation. It wasn't something you had to do before you made it that way by enlisting. It's a tuff call.

digerati

Must...kill...Dom....Signed up at DH....must kill Dom...

CDsDontBurn

ever since at least WWI (cuz that's when it was first well documented), people who have returned from war have always come back with psycological problems after they went to war.

__________________

Falstaff

I am referring to young recruits and any soldier, they must be prepared to kill, they must harnass the will, it is a proven fact at least among our troops, that killing is a skill that must be taught, reinforced and vetted to ensure that soliders can and will pull the trigger on their fellow man when they have to. I have worked with 2nd and 3rd ACR troop, teaching them the tactical and medical software components of the new enviornment they will face in battle. With ease they can select targets as well as evacuate wounded, or suggest strategy, or drop ordinance on targets. Even during the simulations the inexperienced feel a great deal of remorse, as perhaps I did when I watched our Tomohawk missles arch through the sky and their boosters ignite, headed for their targets, I never knew that half would actually slam into residential areas and miss their targets by hundreds of meters. I was sickened, and the image of IRAQI prisoners fleeing automatic weapons fire from Bradleys brings a cold icy cutting chill to the idea that we can be killed easily by someone else equally as reluctant to do so, but must follow orders. The price of victory is more than territorial aquisition or transiet gains on the battlefield, it is the cost in human spirit.

__________________

Frodo301

This is a very true statement, but on the flip side of that you should be given the proper counseling/help after your return from a combat zone and in a speedy manner. You can compare it to the police or even a lifesaving crew that witness a tramatic event. I have many friends in both of these careers and anytime something happens that directly affects their safety or well being (shootouts, death, etc) they receive counseling & mental care. My fear is as with Jeff that this is nothing but a number game and most will fall through the cracks.

__________________
The greatest thing you'll every learn is to love, and be loved in return.

Falstaff

regarding the notion that joining the military is placing yourself in the position to kill is flawed. Young men and women make a career out of the military but most are earning money to survive, to escape and to find some sense of purpose in their lives...I can assure you, killing is the furthest thing from their minds with some obvious exceptions. I agree that counseling is the most important thing and those that do not find religion in the foxhole must actively seek guidance from their mentors and peers.
When I joined I dreaded the idea that I would have to kill to protect myself and my fellow marines, but I knew eventually it would have to be this way. In combat, people are transformed by circumstance and without leadership, they will fail at the moment of truth and become casualties themselves. The military isnt just about killing, it is about power projection and determining the fate of nations, of people and wars.

__________________

Dom

I don't think it's flawed. If you join the military - for whatever reason - you accept the fact you may need to kill someone. I'm not saying you'll be killing people 24/7, nor be killing innocent people, but you must accept the fact that regardless, killing will be a part of the job. It may be a big part or it may be a small part, and I don't think that's so innocent.

Falstaff

it is flawed because our military is processing center for our youth, and our youth are not accustomed to accepting harsh realities that you speak of, that is the crux of my point, not that it isnt true, warfighting means killing and a moral struggle. I know from my own experience, that killing other human beings isnt natural, men and women have to be able to keep their eye on target, track the target and choose to destroy it, that you have to teach. My own personal feelings are that killing is such a totally final thing that I wasnt prepared to see it or do it.

__________________

pr0digal jenius

The point here isn't anythign like that neon. This comes down to the military losing all sense of humanity and compassion and simply turnign lives into a fine ballance of red and green ink and numbers...which si really qutie sad. I'm with whoever it was who mentioned the counciling, and think it should be mandatory for all soldiers upon return.

Falstaff

The United States military is number one in terms of lethality, we can kill so much better than anyone else in terms of our own losses. That is scary, and with the software and weapons out there now, we kill so much more efficiently...humanity is becoming less and less of a factor, software and machines are killing now.

__________________

Dark Lord

i just found this and thought i would post them

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/sto...12924324c.html

http://www.modbee.com/local/story/97...10632259c.html

the 7 months he was in iraq, he never saw combat, never fired a gun, and was also never scheduled to return to iraq.

when he went out shooting, he was hopped up on coke, heavily involved in a local gang, and "Before leaving Camp Pendleton last weekend, Raya told fellow Marines he wanted to buy an SKS assault rifle, Stanislaus County sheriff’s Lt. Bill Heyne said. When Raya’s comrades pointed out that such a rifle is illegal, Raya replied that this weapon could penetrate a police vest, Heyne said."

millitary had nothing to do with this shooting incident, this guy was planning this for some time.

ToshiroOC

SKS's aren't illegal, last I heard. As an 18-year old in California, of all the places, I can buy one for under $400 in perfect condition legally (with the right permits). It fires 7.62x39, which is by no means a special assault vest-penetrating round - though I doubt that cops routinely carry the hard plates required to stop them.

__________________
[img][/img]
[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Falstaff

this fellow that commited the crime and looked for the police to confront him was more involved personally with the war and suffered as many do, how can we measure the total depth of experience, it is finite within the soul of the sufferer, it persists, festers and consumes the person that it infects, the decay of spirit, and ultimate moral corruption of symptoms of a bigger problem. How many of us see it on the streets, the emergency rooms and the classrooms of our underfunded schools, what I am taling about is the fact that this guy had a choice, and he chose poorly. A brave police officer is dead, and joins the valiant brotherhood of men who gave everything that they could for peace. Ironic, a warrior back from IRAQ is engaged in a battle with a man that is sworn to uphold the law, protect the lawful and keep the peace....and sad

__________________