America #1 ? not after reading this....

waterloo

no wonder USA think they god, and KING, and shoot, aND Kill people

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BWX

No I told to stop- but obviously all you can do is misquote me and put words in my mouth, it's pretty sad that is all you have.
I suppose I shouldn't expect anything more from a socialist anti-American such as yourself..

BWX

Wow, what a brilliant post.

OldBuzzard

Sandok

If you would read that again, I said just ONE important area. I said that because I knew it would get all you US bashing weenies panties all in a wad, and you went for it hook, line and sinker.

Along with the FACT that we could kick your ass, goes the fact that we choose NOT to. Name one other country in the HISTORY of the world that has had that kind of power, and refrained from using it.

We could have gotten Bin Laden very simply, if we had the mindset of some of the people you clowns acuse us of being. Calling us nazies and all...if we WERE like hitler and the nazies (I purposely did not use caps for their names because they don't deserve even that amount of credit) we would have simply dropped enough BIG nukes on Afganistan to make sure that NOTHING and NO ONE survived. THAT's what the people that you accuse us of being would have done. And if we WOULD have done that, all that you bunch of wussies would have done about is have hissy fits talking about how evil we are, but in the end you would have shut up because you know just how impotent you really are.

It's not to say that we DON'T have problems. We do, but at least WE put them out in the open for all to see. WE proscitute those amongst us (including the soldiers at Abu Gribe (sp?) and others in power that abuse it. I damned sure don't see the FRENCH doing that with their 'UN Peacekeepers' that were busy gang raping little girls in the Congo. I guess they must have confused PEACE with piece eh?

I don't care WHAT country you live in, you have just as many of more problems as we have here in the States. Get you own house in order before you start on ours. We are doing just fine on our own.

Maybe it's the fact that we have done all of this in roughly 200 years, while your lot has had almost 10 times that long, and you are still second rate. It must suck to be you, and to be so envious of those better than you.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Sandok

OldBuzzard, if you were younger you might understand...

There are SOOO many countries with your power and more (your power is you nuclear aresenal cuz you guys are getting wiped on the floor in Iraq) and Russia was as strong as you guys in the Cold War but no war...

I have never called you a nazi and you are the furthest thing from one. You are american. Only the US has ever used nuclear bombs on another country so dropping nukes on Afghanistan would be american not nazish. And I'm sorry to dissapoint your idea that the whole world loves you and fears you but you guys are the most powerful in the world. Right now, yes but it's changing faster than you can say: America.

And wtf are you talkin abt the french? Half the UN peace keepers aren't even french. And you should see the stories I hear abt american rapping prisoners. They would have loved to keep it quite but hey, some don't know that photos on the internet might fall in the wrong hands. And I mean, rapping men? Why? With broomsticks? And then you think the french are worst?

And the thing is my country has almost no problems I can think of. It's switzerland. If you know where the country is without googling, good job!!! And second, find a few problems and then I'll stop talkin abt the US.

You guys are europeans at the base. Now just become the first round human species with a huge diameter. And you are gonna feel pretty sad when you see your economy after the chinese. Those little people rule! I don't give a damn that you are better. CH has never been number1 and won't ever be. I don't care.

Now please Oldy, don't bash anything till you know what you are talking abt. I can tell that you have never left your country. Let alone maybe your state? Okay maybe you have but I in my WAAAAAY younger life have lived on 3 continetns inculding US and Europe so whatever I'm saying is not stuff ripped off FOX news but from actually touching and seeing. REAL experience.

BWX

Oh yeah? Maybe that is what you hear in your government driven propaganda, I got news for you buddy... you are wrong and whoever told you that is wrong.

First you complain we are a superpower, then you say there are soooo many countries more powerful.. make up your mind.

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Sandok

My country never said that, it doesn't even exist!!! I'm sorry though, your are right, let me rephrase. There are many countries which are in an alliance which have your power. You are the sole country with the most power but it CAN be matched.

Sry mate, mistake on my part.

BWX

The whole point is that the counties that have that much power never will use it. The fact that they have it means they don't need to use it.

Russia, China, the UK, and the US.... If these countries ever directly fight each other- the world would be a very scary place to be. Russia is so broke they aren't even worth mentioning really, and China is content just to have our business.

So saying that all these countries have "more power" really doesn't mean anything. It isn't like they are dumb enough to attack the US.. and the US has no desire to attack anyone that doesn't start something first. It would never be in their own best interest to do so.

Nuclear war is something nobody but nut-cases like N. Korea would like to see... Destroying someone else with nukes is destroying yourself. ..unless of course you have an anti ICBM system in place, which I think we have, whether the US government admits it or not, I think it exists and probably is being tested and developed in secret. With the world like it is today, I really doubt they aren't working on something to that affect.

With the "black budget" we have, I am sure they aren't just building airplanes with it anymore. That's another thing, we have no idea what kind of aircraft they are developing now, with the F117 already here and declassified and the fact that the development of those kinds of aircraft started in the 1970's, imagine what we have now that nobody knows about..

If I could only be a fly on the wall of a hanger in Area51.. imagine what I would see.

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Sandok

I never said those countries want to fight. I'm just saying that the potential for equal combat exists. I do hope in my lifetime, I live in a peaceful era with no more problems (I know too optomistic but hell). No one is dumb enough to attack anyone. USA won't attack UK for example and vice versa.

I'd love to be a fly in Area51

snake

... and even if you're an italian journalist or an innocent civilian

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raid517

No that's what you like to call me. That doesn't mean that's what I am. You see you can misrepresent other people's views too. The difference to me is I don't really give a damn. I have a pretty thick skin as I'm sure you have guessed by now. So your whinging and complaining isn't going to change anything.

GJ

OldBuzzard

Snake,
You are way off base with the 'Italian Journalist' thing. There is a whole thread on that someplace else here, and it's not worth time re-hashing it here just to educate one person who seems to either be ignorant of, or refuses to believe the facts of that situation.

sandok,
It's because of my age that I have a wider view than you might think. I've LIVED what you only know through history books, and I've been to more places, and seen and done things that you can only imagine. Some of it was not pretty, but in the scheme of life it was necessary. I'm a REALIST, I don't live in a 'liberal daydream' where everyone is all goodie goodie, and sweetness and light are everywhere. I know that MAN (no matter what country/race/religious/polotical group he may belong to) is not perfect and never will be. There will always be those that seek to deprive others of their personal freedoms. I have put my life on the line to try and prevent that. Can you say the same? OH, that's right, you are in Switzerland. That's that place where you can't even decide what language to speak. The little landlocked country in the Alps, that is so proud of their neutrality. The country so proud of their chocolate, watchmaking, and banking (which incidently helped finance Hitler in WWII). The country that didn't have the balls to make a stand in WWI and WWII. The country that, if we wouldn't have been instrumental in stopping Hitler, and later keeping the Soviet Union at bay, kept you from having to speak German or Russian EVERYWHERE in your country. The home of Nestle, who seems to not have such a steller reputation in parts of the third world. That is just off the top of my head. If I decided to do about 30 minutes of googling, I could easily come up with more, going back to the middleages. So, you see, even Switzerland which DOES have a good internatiol reputation is not so 'squeeky clean'.

There is a quote from a 19th century British philosopher that certainly applys to you:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill

Like I said earlier, I'm not so blinded that I can't see that the US isn't perfect, but I know that we aren't as evil as some others would like you to believe.

Yes, we ARE the only country in history that used nukes in warfare, and in doing so, saved a hell of a lot more lives, Japanese and Allied, than we killed in the two attacks. It was the right decision at the time, and I'll not apologize to anyone for what we did then.

You sound like an intelligent person, and someday when you finally grow up, you will realize (just as I have), that you really weren't as smart then as you thought you were. Don't worry about that though, it's all a part of life and growing up. We all (with very few exceptions) do that.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

raid517

Mmm, an interesting choice of quotes. As I recall from my school days, John Stuart Mill was arguing for the expansion of empire. He like many of you was an ardent capatalist - and believed in order to dominate the global marked, you had to also be able to dominate the world militarily.

Strange you should pull this out of an example of a philosophy that you appear to subscribe to.

In any case he was right to an extent. If you can bully people hard enough, a lot will eventually fall into line. But utimately the cost of running an empire (whether real or by proxy) tends to outweigh any of the benefits. Being number one as it were, doesn't come cheap. Sooner or later you end up with so many enemies that it simply becomes impossible to maintain this position.

It seems some of you guys may have a while to go before you learn this lesson too.

GJ

Senor_Mota

That was a little thing called "SARCASM".

Oh, and I LOVE this -

It's great how you couldn't think of a way to counter his point of debate, so you automatically call this thread "garbage". GJ has actually made quite a few valid points in this thread and several others, in fact; in more posts than I could count on my fingers and toes. Yeah, this thread is "garbage" - especially since it has some of the best intelligent debate I've seen in the Political Forum.

I'm thinking the only garbage in this thread is the posts you keep making.

Case in Point -

Wow, you insult his intelligence and his opinion because of the context it was written in. You're real bright yourself.

Maybe you should grow up and form an adult opinion on something rather than cheap-shotting people for stating their beliefs. For now, the big boys will be discussing the relevant issues.

Back on topic -
All good things must come to an end...

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raid517

Ok, thanks. That was nice. But in case you get accused of fanboy-ism, I think it is best if we really do try to stick to the topics.

I don't like these sqabbles. They only ever seem to end one way. It is much nicer if we can all stay calm and at least try to say something reasonably interesting.

GJ

Sandok

Dear mister oldy. YOu have lived a wonderful life in US alone. I know more general knowlegde than you because I have travelled. I have never read old history books about things that aren't important today. I have lived first hand what is important for today, not yesterday.

CH don't got the balls so stand up in WW2? Do you know why? ACTUALLY, did you google CH or do you know stuff? I'm shocked

And we are tiny mister, No army, just money and richness.

http://www.moronland.com/media/pictures/cnn.jpg

There is switzerland for you mate. Do you see?! I mean, we are tiny and we have more money that the US (amount of money per person). You guys have phillipe morise which is worse than nestlé. Nestlé has an é like that one. é <------------!!!

We have everything in our country and you have way more. YOu taught terroists to fly so they could destroy your buildings. Is that better than what we do. And dude, your a complete blind old neo liberal. DOn't google that either

Falstaff

yes of course

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OldBuzzard

HMMMM...where did you get the idea that I have lived all my life in the US?

Let's see: Turkey, Germany, France, Philippine Islands, Japan, Vietnan, Thailand, South Korea,Guam, Panama. I've most likely seen more and more varied countries that you have in your short exixtance. These are just the ones I spent time LIVING in, not just visiting.

Don't try to teach your grandfather how to suck eggs son...he's already been there, done that, had the t-shirt, and worn it out.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Senor_Mota

Jeez, raid...I was on topic! At the very end of the post, but I was on topic!

On a personal note, I've noticed the extreme amount of bias amongst the debators in the thread stating "my country" or "your country", etc. You people can't speak for your nation. I sure as hell don't feel the same way as some of you conservative people, or you foreign people, or african-american people, or purple people, whatever. You're all basing your country's standpoint or opinion on your personal opinion, which isn't the view we should be looking at. This is exactly why there is so much tension and stereotypical behaviors tied in with the situations we face today - just on a much larger level.

It's great to have an opinion, but a neutral party will always win - they let other people make the petty decisions for them, as well as keeping a bias out of their decisions.

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Sandok

You should have said that sooner Old. Unfortunately living in those countries for a little while didn't change you did it?

Well I give up with you, go do what you will. I'll see how the world will be in 70 years. And then we'll chat.

BWX

How about you mind your own bees wax?

[COLOR=Red]YOU[/COLOR] are the one off topic here- obviously trying to bring the FWZ unto the PDF.


If you must know (and you would if you would have read the thread), the quotes of mine you made (OUT of context) were in response to :

Which is BS


AND

Which is anything but brilliant.

Mota- give it up... trying to bring the FWZ to the PDF that is. Even though this whole thread should be there anyway since the "statistics" in the original post which this whole thread is about are a bunch of exaggerated half truths and plain old lies. That is garbage.

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raid517

Yes but you are not exactly making a stellar contribution yourself now are you? I mean all you do is complain about what other people say. You raely seem able to counter it.

Anyway if you don't think what I said is accurate. How about you spell it out for me? How about you let me hear you say that America often does things wrong and has done many things wrong in the past too?

Can you bring yourself to do it? Because if you can I guess I could always consider retracting my comment.

GJ

BWX

No obviously that is Mota's job (look above)- and yours (quote above).
mota is just sore because I tore him a new one in the FWZ so his pattern has been to start fights with me in the PDF or OTF... old news really.

When I debate the issues- you tell me what you think I know our start telling me all these facts about myself that are BS.. Then I tell you you are full of BS, then this happens.

Maybe if your debate style would change to discussing issues from underhanded personal attacks and lies, this wouldn't happen.

That's probably why these hate speech threads should be in the FWZ in the first place.

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raid517

Well maybe if you explained yourself more clearly and actually contibuted instead of making empty one line backhanded snipes at everone, people wouldn't be so inclined to make assumptions about you? Life might even get a little easier for us all. There might not be such a need to waste so much pointless energy squabbling over all of this meaningless petty garbage.

Still it's your choice I guess. I can take it any way it comes.

GJ

Senor_Mota

I thought stating my personal opinion on this topic was quite a relevant contribution - rather than "one-liners" and derogatory statements on an individual's personal opinion.

Well, show us where you derive you information from if it's more than a personal opinion. Don't just start b!tching and claiming we're "flaming" you.

Practice what you preach.

This has no pertinence to the discussion either...can we say "HYPOCRITE"?

I shouldn't have stood up for GJ's side of it - I knew you'd throw a prissy b!tchfit over it. The only reason I did is because he made quite a few vaild points throughout this topic. I'd rather someone feel like their opinion was identfied with than keep from p!ssing off "The Undisputed King of Being Right and Super Intelligence".

When BWX makes posts, I e-mail all my friends in the office and they come get a genuine laugh. The only reason they don't come make a contribution is because they're ATi haters...jaded sonsab!tches that they are.

The fact that more individuals in Switzerland have a greater amount of captial does not lead to the conclusion of the ENITRE country having more money. The U.S. never really had money in the first place - in fact, many of the founding fathers left England not only to escape tyranny and the monarchy, but because they were VERY deep in debt. In those days, if you were English and in debt, you were in Jail. The Founding Fathers were vigilantes and the ORIGINAL anarchists. So the money thing is a little impertinent.

You have to admit - America was founded upon some great ideals and beliefs, and yes, this vision has been corrupted. But what modern-day non-third-world country hasn't got it's fair share of corruption? Sh!t, I don't think there's ANY country without corruption. America's is just easier to notice.

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BWX

Wow- you have friends? that are ATI haters? Sounds like a real cool bunch.
Give it up Mota. What have you added to the thread? Crying about my posts is about it.

Ok, back on topic to the USA bashing.......

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raid517

Well this has nothing to do with ATI. So...

But anyway.... Like I said maybe if you actually said anything useful things could be easier? All you seem to have is one phrase, which is 'anti-American'. (Or maybe three, which is American haters or American bashers, though those are really just slight twists on the first phrase). It's all really very predicatable. You seem to say it as if anyone actually cares, or as though we should find it offensive. But to be honest I personally couldn't really care less.

Is this really all the substance you have?

GJ

Senor_Mota

Yep, it looks like you read the last post pretty thouroughly, or else you'd see that on top of stating you ignorance, I made a valid point. This is why people keep insulting you - you make it too easy.

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BWX

Like I care what the handfull of rabid anti-American hate mongers on DH think? Don't give yourself so much credit.

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raid517

Mmm... I really do think that is the full scope of what you have. In that one sentence you exhuasted pretty much every point I have ever heard you make on this forum. It's not a hell of a lot now is it?

GJ