I wish my parents were like this

-={420}=-

Wow, you guys are really making this more personal then it was intended to be. Just one more thing I wanted to say: I agree that SMOKING marijuana is not the best way to experience its effects. In fact, it's the worst. But, being illegal, it's hard to obtain pure THC extract. Therefore, it is smoked.
Sure, it'd be nice to just have a pill you can pop and it would give you the same effects but right now we must take the first step by doing anything in our powers to get marijuana legalized. Only then can we worry about the best way to take it.

Peace

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JavaFox

420, all I was saying that this whole "medical marijuna" B.S. is more about de facto legalization than it is "helping poor chemo-patients." THC, for medical use, is in pill form. If you need it, you can get a prescription. So, really, if you're going to argue in favor or marijuana legalization because it doesn't do harm, then by all means, make that case. But don't hide behind "medical marijuana" -- that movement doesn't have a leg to stand on.

reno

-You know the FDA? They don't even test foods, their policy is strictly "let the companies test and police themselves." The FDA approved Olestra, a drug that showed brain damage and cancerous growth in rats at rates of over 20%, but they legalized it and some chip companies don't even have to tell you it's in their food! Trust the government or it's agencies? HA!

-Anyone who trusts research from governments, companies, or individuals who publicly denounce it's use, or consider it illegal, is just as dumb as a Christian that thinks slavery is okay because Jesus tells slave owners to "control their property" in the Bible...come on.

-One of my teachers was a big flowerchild/potsmoker, and he now has a PhD in Sociology....after 30 years of "hippocampus" damage, don't you think he would be rendered handicapped?

-If you overuse ANY drug you will affect yourself negatively, lab tests usually include dosages that are 1000 times more than the average person would imbibe. That's a fact. You can die from too much Vitamin A, C, or E. That's a fact. You can die from taking too many Aspirin. Too many Tylenol. Too much Robitusin.

-Medical marijuana....yeah, that's totally wrong. It's just for the damn liberals! Yeah right...but Morphene and Codeine are legal (which you can overdose on MUCH easier than THC, plus they instigate heart failure and gastro-intestinal failure) PLUS general anesthesia allows for people to basically be killed...which we all know sometimes has the NASTY side effect of leaving patients in a coma or DEAD. I'd rather get high and forget my pain than get my morphene shots every day.

-So the Mob moved alcohol during prohibition...once it was legal again, who wanted to pay the Mob's over-inflated prices? It's economics, if a marijuana company charges 2 bucks a pack (which...pot is SO easy to mass produce, it's a very versatile plant) and drug dealers, to compete with those companies, charges a buck a pack for lesser quality weed that they have to produce in small quantities...they'll plum go out of business. Yeah, adults might buy pot from the gas station and give it to kids, but that happens with alcohol and cigarettes anyway...so that's moot.

-A joint doesn't have Arsenic in it, or Uranium, or Coal, or Hydrogen Chloride (solid hydrochloric acid)...that's a point in itself.

That's all for now.

Shaith

NIH, a part of US Department of Health and Human Services.

-={420}=-

To JavaFox :

I understand where you're coming from and I personally am not trying to hide behind "medical marijuana". I am not saying that marijuana should be legalized just because it's not harmful and I'm not trying to use the reason that it will help "poor chemo-patients". Not at all. All that I'm trying to say is that legalizing marijuana would help solve some of our country's problems. Now, I'm not trying to start a whole argument whether it would be more beneficial or harmful to our country because no one knows for sure. There are too many factors to take into question. Also, people must realize that you cannot prevent a human being from doing something that they want to do. Criminalization of marijuana is NO SOLUTION to anything! It only makes everything worse. People who want to use drugs will use them anyway and it only makes it worse to criminalize something because then more people know about it and know it's illegal so their natural instinct/human curiosity drives them to try it. Just think about it for a moment--If marijuana was legal and sold at every corner store like cigarettes, people might not even notice it or might just try it and quit. But, just the fact that it's illegal creates a whole new set of problems ranging from the whole black market infrastructure to the lack of space for prisoners in our jails. The criminalization of marijuana has caused more problems in our world than ANY AMOUNT of marijuana will ever do to a person. As I said before, there are way too many factors to decide exactly what would happen if marijuana was legalized but we must take that first step because if we don't then it will only get worse.

__________________

Shaith

drugs are illegal, mmmkay?

-={420}=-

- that's pretty funny, Shaith. But, you must remember that if it was legal you wouldn't have to go to jail in the first place. And why should such a horrible thing happen to someone just because they choose to light a plant's flower on fire and inhale its sweet aroma?

reno - Sorry, I was still writing my post while you published yours. Your explanation says it all.

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Highwood

Jav, Forn, let me say one more time, people like you, that don’t want to change the existing drug laws are, the drug dealers best friend. Every person I know that profits from the production or sale of marijuana fears its legalization ( as a user of marijuana and former prison guard I know several) .

I’m a productive member of society that is gainfully employed, pays taxes, and has never hurt anyone, Dig sounds like he falls into the same category. Why do people like Jav and Forn want us removed from our chosen occupations and thrown in jail because we take a toke every now and then I don’t understand? If I take a few tokes before going to bed who am I hurting?

-={420}=-

Yes, thank you so much for making that clear. Why should someone sit in jail with murderers and rapists just because he/she chooses to take advantage of such a wonderful herb? Smoking weed doesn't make you a criminal. It's just a plant, damn it!

Let me repeat what I said earlier: [COLOR=orangered]The criminalization of marijuana hurts our society much more than the marijuana itself.[/COLOR]

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reno

420, right on, criminalization of mary jane is no solution.

I agree with dig and wood, we all pay our taxes, hell, some of us coach pop warner football! If we light up in the comfort of our own home, not affecting ANYBODY else, then why...if a cop decides to bust us, should we sit in a cell with the likes of the Menendez brothers and the Hindleys? If mary jane does damage, then we've only done it to ourselves, so why should we get punished for that?

-={420}=-

__________________

reno

"And that's all I's got ta say about thayt"

toddsmack2k

cigarettes, alcohol, tobacco it is all about addiction. they are all equally addictive. from the 2 pack a day smoker to the just a little late at night toker. they will all be banned one way or another, either from way too high taxes or harsh penalties. my point is why legalize one more addictive susbtance? hell you can even throw in caffeine and prescription pills into this argument. if smoking pot is just a little here and there to help you relax, cant you find something else to do it for you? for something that is done just every once in a while get rid of it. but you cant because you are addicted! i do not look down on anyone who smokes pot but i do not agree with its legalization. there is not one single pole that shows any good effects of its legalization. and before you show me any lniks to polls or statistics i believe most of them are very nice for show and tell but are 98% bull. and for every poll that shows something good there is another showing the opposite. It is all opinions based on each of our own individualities and what choices we as individuals make of good and wrong. so i am going to fire up a marlboro and enjoy the cigarette and the great conversation


yeah im addicted lol

JavaFox

420 and reno, it is extremely heartening to see that even some pro-pot proponents see the ridiculousness and fallacy of "medical marijuana."

Anyway, in response to 420's statements ("The criminalization of marijuana hurts our society much more than the marijuana itself") I really have to ask what you're talking about. If you're talking about costs to taxpayers, you're wrong. Drug policy makes up a relatively small portion of our government's spending -- about $19 billion in 2002. Most of that money was used for treatment, education, and prevention -- the DEA (responsible for drug enforcement) got a paltry $1.6 billion. Remember that the Department of Defense pays $2.1 billion a pop for certain aircraft. ... hmm.. you know, I'm having difficulty figuring out what you mean.

The concept of a "victimless crime" when it comes to marijuana abuse is an abject and absolute fallacy. First, legalization, without exception, comes with an unacceptably increased use among kids. It happened in 1975 when Alaska legalized it. It got so bad over the next fifteen years that they had to re-criminalize it. It happened under Carter, when 11 states decriminalized marijuana and the president was considering federal decriminalization. It's happened in Europe. And it will happen again. Decriminalization will lead to drastically higher levels of addiction, period. And it's the youth that will be hurt by it, primarily.

Secondly, drug addiction and treatment puts a burden on the taxpayers, and the health care system as a whole. By some estimates, it costs twice as much to treat someone for drug addiction than it does for alcohol addiction -- and you have to remember, that the single largest reason children are in rehab is to get off of dope: more than alcohol and every other drug combined. Adults also suffer; marijuana trails only heroin as the problem when it comes to rehabilitation.

Finally, there is a huge public risk in allowing marijuana-induced intoxication. In 1995 a study conducted in Tennessee found that 45% of reckless drivers tested postive for marijuana use. A National Transportation Safety Board study of 182 fatal truck accidents revealed that 12.5 percent of the drivers had used marijuana. In addition, intoxication has very dangerous implications for on-the-job safety. It has lead to numerous disasters. Furthermore, job productivity is adversely affected by marijuana use. Decriminalization of marijuana could lead to increased injury rates and increased medical claims in the workplace.

So, in summation, marijuana decriminalization will lead to an increase in use and, thus, addiction. And legalization will lead --and HAS lead to-- increased use among the youth -- and I'm not talking about a temporary increase. Marijuana use will burden the taxpayers and our health care system. And it could endanger our workers, decrease productivity, and lead to increased on-job injuries.

Decriminalization of marijuana sets a dangerous precedent. Alcohol is a dangerous drug, yes, but simply stating this fact is not a valid argument for pot-legalization. Should we simply introduce yet another harmful and dangerous drug for the sake of consistency? That doesn't make much sense and is not a very intelligent argument. Besides, alcohol and marijuana are not used in the same way nor for the same purpose. Like I said, you can use alcohol reponsibly --and not get drunk-- but you cannot do this with marijuana. And not all people drink alcohol to GET drunk, but pot-smokers smoke pot to get high. That's the difference.

Finally, reno, if you're so cynical and doubtful of the FDA and government, then I honestly don't know how you live your life. How do you take medication? That's ensured by the FDA. How do you know your food won't have harmful chemicals in it? FDA. In fact, how do you function on ANY level, without trusting the government in some way?

Sourcer_2002

sdfsdfsadfdasf

Ryoko

w33d r0x

-={420}=-

In response to JavaFox :

No, I am not talking about taxpayers' money. I do not care for that since I don't pay taxes yet. What I was referring to was not so much that it costs money to criminalize marijuana (even though it does) but about people going to jails, losing their jobs, and being treated like trash because they choose to use it. As I said before, we're not hurting anyone except possibly ourselves. So, if we choose to accept the consequences of our actions, then why is it so wrong to smoke marijuana? Does it really make you such a bad person because you smoke a joint after a stressful day? I guess it's too difficult for people to understand that we don't want to bring chaos into this world. All we want is to have our freedom back. Please don't give me all these statistics because they really don't prove anything. For every one of your "stats" there is another one that proves otherwise.
And, yes it does cost money to criminalize marijuana because if run out of jail space, more must be built. Also, more and more of your tax money is being used so that cops can have more dogs, better equipment, etc. for helping them enforce marijuana laws. But, once again, it's not about the money. It's the people that matter. If we don't legalize marijuana, it will only get worse. There will be more and more crimes committed, more street gangs will roam our cities, and more dealers will be selling drugs to kids. Do we really want that?
If marijuana was legalized, we'd have one reliable source of it and we would then be sure that it's clean and good. And if we choose not to trust the government that's fine too...we can always grow our own garden. This would, in turn, eliminate the whole black market system. And, isn't that what we really want?

__________________

Highwood

Jav using your stats indicate truck drivers that don’t smoke pot are 7 times more likely to kill some one than truck drivers that do smoke pot.

When you say 45% of reckless drivers tested positive for marijuana use, and 182 fatal truck accidents revealed that 12.5 percent of the drivers had used marijuana, does that mean they were stoned at the time of the accident or were they in a room where some one else smoked a joint 2 months before the accident, either scenario would account for the positive drug test.

reno

I only eat organically grown foods purchased from local farmers, or meat from animals and fish that have been caught from lakes privately researched for toxins. The few junk foods I do eat are in such quantities to marginalize the harmful side-effects associated with them. I don't smoke, I don't smoke pot (anymore), and I rarely drink.

The only medicines I take are pain killers, which one (which was FDA approved, and even stated on the bottle "gastrointestinal bleeding is very rare compared to Naproxum Sodium") put me in the hospital for intestinal hemmoraging. I take percription Naproxum with no problems.

No one needs to "trust" the government to survive, you just have to be intelligent enough to be able to control the little things in life. Sure, I can't control how much chlorine goes into city water (so I drink water from our privately tested well), and I can't control how many organochlorines or the amount of pollution that's in the air, but I live with it.

All this I can do without trusting in a government whose only intent is perpetuating our meager existences while it fattens it's wallets, the wallets of it's "special interests," and broadening it's power over us.

skastel

Since nicotine is as addictive as heroin and seems to have some pretty sickening delivery systems, it should be banned. No if ands or butts<hehe puns ahoy!> I think alcohol should be banned too. I'm all for keeping pot illegal, even though I myself indulge in it. But let me elaborate.
Actually I think everything should be legal really, and I wish people simply had the common sense to use harmful substances. However time has shown and probably will continue to show people are irresponsible when it comes to intoxication. I personally see no real draw towards cigarettes, it seems like a filthy addiction and doesn't have a single upside. I'm not proud that I smoke pot, and I've quit recently to clear my head up for schoolwork. But hell I've also stopped drinking like I used to. It's all about responsibility. We should know better than to alter our bodies, we're fuckin miracles of nature. Until humans can learn to keep themselves in control of themselves, we will need to ban substances.

Note: Please don't point out the hypocrisy of me smoking, I admit to having done it and probably will do it again. But I don't see what the damn difference is between smoking pot and getting drunk. Both leave you in a state where you aren't fully in control of you thoughts, your senses, and sometimes your actions.


Edit: Jav, just cause someone got high last night, doesn't mean they're going to blow their workplace up the next day. And how is being stoned on the Job worse than being drunk? They're both bad ideas that can not only get you in a lot of trouble, but get someone hurt.

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reno

Fun facts about POT!

Average US Prison Sentance served for murder charge: 6.3 years

Average US Prison Sentance served for pot charge: 10 years

Change in number of Americans jailed for non-violent drug offenses since 1980: +800%

Pot users busted every year: More than 700,000

Amount of tax money the Office of National Drug Control Policy spent on fighting marijuana: 18.1 billion

Amount of tax money the Office of National Drug Control Policy spent on fighting cocaine: 1.3 billion

Number of Americans who have tried pot within the last 10 years: 70 million (out of 290+ million citizens)

Rank of marijuana, among all US cash crops: 1

Estimate annual sales of pot in the US: 32 billion dollars

Sales tax revenue that could be generated by marijuana if it were taxed at 6%: 1.9 billion dollars

Amount of decrease in health care benefits in 2001: 1.6 billion dollars

A recent poll in USA Today stated that 1 in 3 Americans believed legalizing marijuana was a good idea.

Percentage of Teens in Holland (where pot is LEGAL) who have tried pot: 28 percent

Percentage of Teens in America (where pot is ILLEGAL) who have tried pot: 41 percent

Nixon (as president) appointed a committee whose task was evaluating the "threat" of pot on the "everyman." The committee embarassed Nixon by recommending decriminalization of marijuana because "it's use, in and of itself, is neither causitive of nor directly associated with crime." Nixon ignored this report and disbanded the committee.

In 1999 under Clinton, General Barry McCaffery (an anti-drug proponent) found "that very few regular users developed a dependance on marijuana, and, in fact, they appear less likely to do so than users of other drugs."

Holland's per capita root consumption (the amount of pot consumed per citizen) is much lower than America's. Even though pot is sold in every coffee shop, and in some fast food restaurants.

Approximate increase in annual budget for US drug control since 1980: 35 billion dollars

George Washington grew cannabis, Shakespeare smoked it in pipes, King James the First (who commissioned the most popular version of the holy Bible) orderd hemp to be grown in his settlement at Jamestown, the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs and Priests dabbled in Opium and Cocaine use, and Doctor Sigmund Freud (psychoanalyst, retainer to the title "creator of Oedipus Complex (where a boy kills his father and lusts after his mother)") considered his cocaine use "medicinal" and perscribed marijuana and cocaine to patients as "local anesthetic."



So yeah. Just some interesting facts gained from around the web.

reno

Oh, and Kentucky accounts for 4.2 billion dollars worth of pot sales from the own homegrown weed.

Joneser

Here's a story from an ex pot head (among other things)...

I used to smoke pot, and lots of it. I used to do cocaine, acid, opium,hash,special k, ecstasy, and occassionaly bump some heroin. Then one day my fiance left me, took my kid, narced me out and f#cked my whole world up. I knew that if I ever wanted to see my kid again I had to stop, and I did. It was hard, very hard. Then the depression set in.....three months w/o seeing my son. So I locked myself in the house and tried to drink myself dead. It was bad. Then one day I got a call from my present employer. Somehow got a job, got my shit together and got visitation rights w/ my son. I could not be more greatfull to my ex for turning on the lights.

When it comes to pot, I don't really think that it is that bad. I mean you don't hear of Billy-Bob getting stoned, coming home and beating his wife and kids. I would much rather be riding in the car w/ someone who is stoned than w/ a drunk. Actually I could have used a joint trying to come off of all the crap that had my head twisted.

I have to take random piss tests @ my job and that would be fine with me if they had a piss test to tell if you were stoned at the time. Why would going home on Friday, after busting your @ss all week, and smoking a fatty to mellow out effect me when I go in to work monday morning. But sure enough I'd loose my job, now that I don't agree w/. I wouldn't want to be hooking up 480V Ac to a unit w/ someone who is stoned, hell no, but if he goes home and gets lit, who cares.

So drugs tests at work can be a good thing, as long as they were accurate! Maybe they should invent a test to analyze you brain waves or something ( or just play THE WALL, and see who zones out)

fornicatarachnid

First of all Joneser, congratulations on getting your life back together, that must have been so hard but it sounds like you have finally cracked it.

However, there is one thing I don't get in what you just said. First you said....


...and then in the next paragraph you said ....

...so whats the difference ? Years ago I drove home stoned from a pool hall I used to go to and it was only later that I realised I couldn't actually remember how I did it. I must have been on auto-pilot or something. That scared me to death and I never did it again.

In my opinion drug-driving is just as dangerous as drink-driving so please, if you have to smoke the stuff, keep off the roads

Drug Driving

Dane Sabbath

lol

"Drug policy makes up a relatively small portion of our government's spending -- about $19 billion in 2002."

Maybe it's a small percentage dude, but every US taxpayer put in over $150 a year to make that up.

That is more money than some countries' GDP.

It is also only about equivalent to the amount of marijuana produced by Canada alone...

Keep on trying dude, but the truth is you or anyone has no right to tell me or anyone else what we may do with our bodies' and plants produced by billions of years of organic evolution. Most people know that, thus most people disregard governments' marijuana drug policies.

Do the math.

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Come get some...

JavaFox

I'm extremely tired of this thread at this point. It has become fraught with rhetoric (and I'll admit that I'm guilty of this as well), and I don't honestly believe that much good is coming of it. However, for the purposes of keeping a valid viewpoint alive, I will continue to participate in this thread so long as people post in it. I've thought about a lot of the things you pro-pot supporters have said --and there is some validity to it all-- and I hope I can be afforded the same courtesy.

Dane, in 2002, the US Government spent about $2 trillion ($2,000,000,000,000). Therefore, the total amount of money spent on drug policy is less than 1% of federal spending. And if you read my entire statement, I said that the majority of that $19 billion goes to education and treatment -- enforcing drug policy (i.e., the DEA) only gets $1.6 billion. This is .08% of federal spending. For purposes of comparison, note that Social Security is 23% of your spending. Dane, if you're against educating the nation's youth on the dangers of drug abuse, then you have every right to complain about that less than 1% of the federal budget -- but something tells me that you, like most people, care about youth. Maybe I'm wrong.

Dane, you know, I realize that you think that marijuana use doesn't effect anyone but yourself, but you are wrong. I've said numerous times that child use skyrockets when marijuana is legalized, and it's apparent that most people in this thread don't care about that.

So how about this? How about studies from the US National Institute of Justice showing that 42.7% of the arestees it tested (a little under 60,000) positive for marijuana -- compared to 5% for opiates, 3% for methamphetamines, and a miniscule 1% for PCP? The fact is this: drugs lead to increases in crime. Drugs --marijuana to PCP to cocaine-- cause humans to do things they would not ordinarily do. It removes inhibitions. And data clearly shows that crimes will occur not because somebody WANTS drugs, but because they're ON drugs. It's just that simple.

Also, I'd like to repeat a point I made earlier pertaining to drug rehab centers. I said that in 1999, more than 200,000 Americans entered drug rehabilitation centers to combat their addiction to marijuana. This is a striking statistic, placing marijuana second only to heroin. Now, for fairness' sake, more people enter rehab for alcohol problems than marijuana, but the percentage for alcohol abusers has been DECREASING while the percentage for marijuana users has been INCREASING.

So there, two conclusive ways that marijuana legalization effects more than just you: increase in crime and addiction of children. But, then again, maybe some people don't care about these things.

reno

Gee, I hate to think of how overrun Holland is with pot smoking criminals and stoned 8 year olds! It must be chaos!


Javafox, all your "facts" were collected by agencies looking to make a point...and are more than likely completely wrong.


Whatever, there is no changing the views of a flaming republican, just because you like living in your predetermined, secure, and utterly pointless life doesn't mean that everyone else shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want with their life.

JavaFox

Dimissing facts simply because they come from a source you may not like is understandable, but not entirely intelligent. Being cynical is one thing -- but you try too hard, my friend. What are you, Goth?

One thing I have to point out, reno --and surely a patriotic American such as yourself is aware of this-- is the fact that the USA is not Europe. You will note that we have yet to start a World War, are not primarily socialist, and use coins that are, for the most part, hypoallergenic. No, ours is a country vastly different from that of our European bretheren, and it is therefore a fallacy to assume that every single policy that worked for them will work for us.

Now, that said, it is possible to draw some parallels between Europe and us. If you've studied the drug policies of the Netherlands, reno, you'd see something quite strange about it. Namely, that marijuana sale is not quite legal. They have de facto legality -- coffee shops and other stores are licensed to sell up to 5 grams of it to a customer, but it isn't legal for anyone else to sell it. Isn't that kind of strange? Doesn't that pose an interesting question...? Like, where are the coffee shops getting their dope from? Illegal means! The New York Times (among the most politically liberal newspapers you could get in this country) reports that even in small towns such as Venlo (pop. 90,400), there are 65 known illegal places to buy pot, as well as plenty of dope dealers on the streets because five grams just isn't enough for everyone! So basically, you have illegal dopehouses, people who are addicted to the point where five grams isn't enough, and an illegal drug distribution underground and yet people try to claim that the liberal drug policies of the Netherlands don't lead to more crime? Only a supreme partisan could fail to see how the policies of the Netherland help to create an illegal drug culture.

It's also a blatant lie that "legalized" marijuana use will lead to careful experimentation and not widescale addiction and abuse. Studies by the British Journal of Pyschiatry show that marijuana use amongst 18-25 year olds in Holland have more than doubled between '84 and '96. And that is not without it's dire social implications. The head of the country's best known drug rehabilitation center has been quoted as saying that marijuana use creates "a chronically passive individual—someone who is lazy, who doesn’t want to take initiatives, doesn’t want to be active—the kid who’d prefer to lie in bed with a joint in the morning rather than getting up and doing something."

Finally, if you think that legalizing "soft drugs" like marijuana doesn't lead to increased use and acceptance of even more dangerous substances, then you are probably unaware of the facts. First, heroin addiction levels in Holland have increased between 300% and 400%. Second, the Netherlands have known problems with Ecstasy. This drug is not legal in that country, yet it produces the majority of the world's supply. The Ecstasy problem is so bad in Holland that the government started a "Five Year Offensive against the Production, Trade, and Consumption of Synthetic Drugs."

If the loose drug policies of Holland hurt nobody, then why did that country have to form the "Penal Care Facility for Addicts" --painfully reminiscent of the US's Drug Treatment Courts-- to treat and detain addicts that repeatedly commit crimes? If there wasn't that problem, they wouldn't have formed those courts.

If the drug policies of Europe hurt nobody, then why did the EU, in its 2001 Annual Report on the State of the Drugs Problem in the European Union, find that there was a Europe-wide increase in cocaine use? Why did the British Home Office find that violent crime and property crime increased in every wealthy nation in the late 90s except the US, with its "spartan" drug laws?

Sometimes, facts dictate policy -- and not the other way around as you suggest.

Reno, you do yourself and your position a great disservice when you make ad hominem attacks on me like that. I'm going to have to respectfully ask that you keep your belligerence and nonsensical fallacies of argument where they belong.

kinetic

What position might that be?

Ryoko

it couldn't be because we still have guns, could it?