raid517

Oh well I guess my house is safe then.

GJ

trodas

Weird, I never ever heard about more that ONE suicide attackers - ever...

I could be wrong, tough.

OTOH, when firing, then what about firing at tires and not after peoples inside? The fact that they can't see what is inside is a BS too - they see and shoot pretty well - considering the results.
Blind shooting will be far less severe, that one dead, one seriously wonded and few little wounds for others...

OldBuzzard

trodas,


In a 'perfect world', yes 'firing at the tires' would be the best thing to do. In fact the SOP is for the troops to first fire warning shots, and then aim for the engine compartment. However, you must understand that in 'the heat of battle', the 'perfect world' doesn't exist. You have a moving vehicle, you have young troops fearing for their safety, and pumped up with adrenaline by that fear. It's one thing to shoot at stationary targets when you are calm and on a firing range, but it's quite another when you are faced with what may be a life or death situation. Hollywood to the contrary, most combat is 'spray and pray', and not the 'eagle eyed marksman' shooting his target with 'rifle range precision'.
Remember, those guys are just like you and me. They aren't 'blood thirsty killers'. In fact the US Military tries as best as they can to make sure that those types are not allowed to enlist. Those people are as much, if not more of a danger to us than they are to our enemys.

In the final analysis, the troops followed procedures/policys that were designed to keep them safe. If the driver of the car/van would have followed the procedures/policys that are desighed to keep THEM safe, the whole incident would not have occured.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

raid517

So what would happen and how would your opinion change if at all if the soldiers were investigated and it was found that they didn't follow proceedure?

Nonetheless in several ways I agree. It is a difficult situation - where perhaps you have several young troops who are afraid and nervous and suspicious of anything that looks even a little out of the ordinary. Spray and pray is what a lot of people might resort to at times like these. But what I don't like is the continued insistence on blaming the other side. Always it is someone else who is to blame. How about if it wasn't the Italians fault either? How about it was just a tragic accident, a breakdown in communications - a failour on all sides to keep each other informed? Is this not a more likely scenario than the Italians deliberately opting to commit suicide by driving at high speed at a check point, or the soldiers deliberately targeting them and killing them?

Why seek to discredit the Italians by questioning their allegances (by inferring as has been done here for example that they were in league with the terrorists) or to assasinate their characters, or blame them for not understanding the rules of engagement when they were on the run from a gang of brutal killers who moments earlier had showed a genuine readiness to kill this woman and possibly her guardians too with little or no mercy?

Anyway it seems the Italians didn't like being blamed very much either. They were one of America's staunchest allies in Iraq - and particularly so in the run up to war. But now even they are pulling out - and this very small alliance is beginning to look not just small, but more or less non existant.

But maybe it won't be too long before the Americans and the British decide they have had enough too.

GJ

OldBuzzard

Good points Raid

1. If the troops did NOT follow SOP, then yes they should be held accountablle.

2. If the Italians did NOT know what the procedures for check points were, which I will concede is possible, then that brings up another question: WHY didn't they know it, and who was responsible for not informing them of it. I hardly think that our SOP for check points is a secret. To the contrary it is, and has been, well publicized.

As for 'blame' that's hard to say. Most likely it's partly on both sides, or neither is to blame, and it was one of those unfortunate 'fog of war' accidents.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

raid517

Maybe they did know the rules of engagement - but they believed they had gotten a green light to get the hell out of there as fast as they could - which meant also that the various checkpoints allong the road knew to expect them? That is after all what the Italians are saying they belived to be the case. Obviously there was a communications breakdown at some point.

I think what people found most shocking about this incident was that she had just escaped captivity at the hands of her brutal captors - only to be almost killed moments later by people she thought were on her own side. Now that is what is called tragically ironic - nothing to smile about there at all - and if you don't at least feel even a little sorry for her then in my view you are probably not human.

GJ