Warpy

Now tell me the Americans are NOT trigger friggn happy grunts! My previous thread regarding the crazy 14yr old kid that was "put away" and slapped on the bum for unloading a handgun into their school bus diver in front of the class, but this one takes the cake and the biscuit I think that the world will fall under the "%@!# for brains" U.S thickheads that are trigger happy! So watch out!

Agent died saving journo: PM
By Denis Barnett in Rome
March 05, 2005
From: Agence France-Presse


ITALIAN hostage Giuliana Sgrena was freed from her Iraqi captors today only to be shot and wounded by US troops firing at the convoy carrying her to safety, Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said.

An Italian secret service agent who helped secure Ms Sgrena's release was killed when he threw himself in front of her to protect her from the incoming bullets. Mr Berlusconi said his government had called in the US ambassador to Rome, Mel Sembler, to explain the shooting.

The US military confirmed the incident, but said the Italian convoy, speeding towards a checkpoint manned by US forces near Baghdad airport, ignored signals to slow down and stop. The prime minister, a staunch ally of US President George W. Bush, told a press conference in Rome there were "disquieting questions" that needed to be answered about the incident.

"Several shots hit the car. One man was mortally wounded by a bullet. We are petrified and dumbfounded by this fatality."

Mr Berlusconi said Ms Sgrena had been hit in the left shoulder, and two other Italians agents had been wounded when their vehicle was raked by American gunfire.

"Ms Sgrena has said she is okay and has been treated. Then she underwent a small surgery to extract shrapnel," the prime minister said.

He said the dead agent had thrown his body in front of Ms Sgrena to protect her from the shots.

"It is a pity. This was a joyful moment which made all our co-citizens happy, which has been transformed into profound pain by the death of a person who behaved so bravely." The US military said the soldiers who fired on a speeding vehicle had waved their hands and arms, flashed white lights and fired warning shots in a failed attempt to get it to stop.

"When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others," the 3rd Infantry Division said.

Italy's ANSA news agency said one of the two Italian agents wounded in the shooting was in a serious but stable condition after an operation to remove a bullet from one of his lungs. The other wounded agent had been released from hospital and taken to the Italian embassy. Earlier Ms Sgrena's newspaper, the Rome-based leftist daily Il Manifesto, said the 56-year-old journalist had been taken to a US-run hospital for treatment for wounds to her shoulder, adding that her life was not in danger.

"There's little to say. The Americans nearly killed her," Ms Sgrena's companion Pier Scolari was quoted as saying by the ANSA news agency.

The newspaper named the dead man as Nicola Calipari. Il Manifesto's editor Gabriele Polo paid tribute to the Italian agent, crediting him with Ms Sgrena's release.

"Nicola Calipari is the person we must thank most for Giuliana's release. Unfortunately, he was killed by American bullets."The journalist was kidnapped in Baghdad last month by an Iraqi group that called on Rome to withdraw its troops from Iraq.

News of the shooting dampened the mood at the Rome offices of the newspaper, where overjoyed staff were celebrating their colleague's release and preparing for her return. Details of the release were not immediately clear. Ms Sgrena was abducted on February 4 after visiting a Baghdad mosque where refugees have been encamped since a devastating US-led assault on the city of Fallujah in November. She was shown pleading for her life in a video released by her kidnappers two weeks after her kidnapping in Baghdad. Sobbing and looking thinner, she delivered an impassioned message pleading for her life and begging Rome to withdraw its troops from Iraq.

Mr Berlusconi's centre-right government rejected the plea, and on the same day used its majority to ensure the Italian Senate voted to extend the mission of Rome's 3000 troops in Iraq. A few days after the video was shown, an estimated half a million people marched in Rome to demand the journalist's release. Ms Sgrena has worked for Il Manifesto since 1988. The paper opposed the US-led invasion of Iraq.

Can we trust the Americans to bring peace!?

Source

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Vikingod

Trigger happy, or just sick of watching cars speed at them and explode. Come on, put yourself in their shoes. you see a car speeding at you, they won't stop, you've seen this before, and the last time it killed your friends. Tell me you woudn't shoot. You would just let them driver right up to you, and then you would ask them nicely why they were speeding. You have the advantage of hindsight bias, you only know what the press told you, and your dislike for Americans. Those soldiers had no idea who was in that car, and the odds were in the favor that it was some suicide bomber.

Threads like this are suck bullshit, go ahead and say what you want about the US government, but these broad accusations about Americans in general are completely unfounded, and I for one am tired of hearing it. lets face it, we could all say something negative and inflamitory about every nation out there (yes, even China), I for one am not going to waste my time.

dpagan

it's a pity, but did you really read the whole article? Quote: "The US military said the soldiers who fired on a speeding vehicle had waved their hands and arms, flashed white lights and fired warning shots in a failed attempt to get it to stop." They gave warnings which were ignored, with so many car bomb attempts made at U.S. soldiers, how where they supposed to know they wheren't just another terrorist? They didn't follow procedure, they should've stoped.

Vikingod

amen

Dom

Italian Journalist Rejects U.S. Account

dpagan

BS, if she was a U.S. target, why not finish her off when they had the chance? Why take her to the hospital? Why not just put a few more rounds into the car. Then again she is a journalist, why not milk this story for all it's worth, i bet a book will be out in a few months.

YAYitsAndrew

Hey look it's warpy finding some accident that can be used to generalize the entire american population if you fail at comprehending the entire story.

Where have I seen that before?

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In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

Vikingod

HAHA, yeah, if the military was in the business if killing journalist, Geraldo Rivera would have been dead a long time ago.

You said it.

BWX

Get a grip on reality man- The idiot driver that wouldn't stop is the one to blame. If he had a brain in his THICK SCULL he would know that coming up on US troops in a speeding car without stopping is a good way to die, especially with the history of cars speeding by and blowing up US troops.. he must be stupid and ignorant of the present state in Iraq to think anything else.


You hatred for Americans is not supported by this unfortunate event.

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Gabriel_Etranil

Can we trust you to give an objective post?

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"I want to believe the voice in my head, but it lies"

OldBuzzard

Warpy

How about putting your posts in the FWZ? That's where they really belong, and where I could make an adequate reply to them. I fear however, that you are just another cowardly 'Euro Weenie' that wouldn't be able to stand the heat.

In this case, the Italians 'had it coming', and I see it as a strenghtening of the gene pool. Anyone stupid enough to ignore armed soldiers' demands to stop is too stupid to be allowed to live and reproduce.

As for posting any more of these pathetic attempts to show how 'evil' the US is that you keep coming up with, it's really a waste of time, since anyone whose IQ is 2 points higher than a rock's can easily see through your pitiful agenda.

I would invite you instead, to explore the joys of single-participant reproduction.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

TJ-

actually........

You gotta put yourself in their position. It was at night, theyre soldiers in Iraq, and everybody wants them dead. Hell if i was there i would be shooting at everything moving aswell. You cant blame the individual solidiers, you can blame the piss poor government for doing what they do best. LACK OF INTELLIGENCE. I say remove those dumb ass basterds in washington and put somebody in charge with a fucking brain.

As for the soldiers, they will probably be punished to make a scapegoat so that the piece of shit American policy in Iraq isnt tarnished. I saw give them a medal. They did their job, punish their commander for not telling them what was going on. Its just like the abu graib picture scandel. They punish they soldiers that were taking orders and they high ranking people get off scott free. Thats American justice for ya. The greatest country in the world........? i think not!

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new sig comming soon

raid517

Trigger happy? Maybe, maybe not. It still remains a fact that more allied (read non US) troops and personel (and particlarly in this instance the British) have been killed by US friendly fire (given that I have yet to encounter a truly friendly bullet in the head) than have been killed by enemy forces thoughout the entire duration of the war. What does that say about the level of training and professionalism of US forces? I'll leave it for you guys to make up your own minds. (Since most of you will already have done this anyway).

All I know is that it seriously pisses me off.

GJ

The_Neon_Cowboy

#1 the US was not informed of this "covert" operation

#2 failing to stop at a check point or slow down far as the troops knew the card was A) full or terriost B) full of explosives and terriost(s) that are about to detate them and kill everyone near by AKA the soldgers who open fire protectiong thier own lifes.... JUSTFIED


you guys need to read these parts of the story also....

"Italian officials have not provided details about the negotiations leading to Sgrena's release Friday after a month in captivity, but Agriculture Minister Giovanni Alemanno was quoted as saying it was "very likely" a ransom was paid."

"The U.S. military has said the car Sgrena was riding in was speeding, and Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and warning shots to get it to stop at the roadblock. "

"But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said, "There was no bright light, no signal." She also said the car was traveling at "regular speed." "

"Sgrena, who works for the communist daily Il Manifesto, "

"Sgrena said the driver began shouting that they were Italian, then "Nicola Calipari dove on top of me to protect me and immediately, and I mean immediately, I felt his last breath as he died on me." "

"Sgrena wrote that her captors warned her as she was about to be released not to signal her presence to anyone, because "the Americans might intervene." She said her captors blindfolded her and drove her to a location where she was turned over to agents and they set off for the airport. "

(Funny it's her word againt many others .... some one with an agenda...)

"Iraqi politician Younadem Kana told Belgian state TV Saturday evening that he had "nonofficial" information that a $6 million ransom was paid for Sgrena's release, the Apcom news agency reported from Brussels. The report could not be confirmed. "

thats great italians paying million(s) to terriosts ransom or no ranson for a jernialst
wich will help fund terroist attacks and will lead to the death of many U.S. soldgers and possable fund attacks here at home... Good job italy kill many to save 1, the needs of the 1 out wiegh the many... ?I just itally can chalk up some men wemon and childrens blood on thier hands...

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Vikingod

Where did you hear that, what source, that is BS. Friendly fire is a part of war, yes, but what you say is totally untrue. For real FACTS, go to http://icasualties.org/oif/default.aspx

BWX

He like spewing out BS statistics about the US...

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raid517

Friendly fire statistics are not listed on that page. Friendly fire incidents are considered to be 'industrial accidents' and as such are not distoinguished from normal casualties by the Army.

Moreover there are no official statistics regarding friendly fire deaths - since clearly the military finds statistics like this embarrassing and would rather have them swept under the carpet. But there is more than once incident where I have heard stories of British troops complaining that they didn't quite know who to dodge, as it seemed they were under fire almost as much from the Americans as from the Iraqi insurgents.

I don't think it's worth dragging over it too much. I think technology has become much more complex and as anyone who is familiar with technology knows, lots of high tech gadgets have a tendency to fail. But it still ticks me off nonetheless. There should be a better way to identify friend from foe - and it seems incredible in this modern age that we do not have more reliable systems in place.

Anyway more about friendly fire here:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...=Google+Search

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...=Google+Search

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...G=Search&meta=

The other problem is that overall casualties have been so low that it is easy to overplay these attacks (even if we do seem to hear about a new incident every other week) simply because they make up such a high percentage of the total and as a consequence they tend to stand out more.

Like I said, I don't know what this means about the standard of US training - but there really ought to be more effort put into avoiding unnecessary casualties of this nature.

GJ

raid517

Lol... and you know what you can kiss.

GJ

BWX

It's a FREAKING WAR! Not some carefully played out game of chess. It is chaos... The soldiers are trained to stay alive. Friendly fire is a risk of any war and it happens in every war. Don't start bashing the US soldier's training because of un-preventable friendly fire incidences...

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The_Neon_Cowboy

Current US stats...



http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...casualties.htm

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Vikingod

Efforts have been made to make sure friendly fire casualties dont happen, but the factor is never going to be eliminated, that is part of war. Everyone that has died fighting or aiding this war knew the reprecusions of being in a battle field, one of those is death caused by friendly fire.

BTW, those statistics on the web site do include friendly fire, the site is not run by the US government, it is a statistical organization, and tends to be more against the war then for it (ie. it doesnt care about embarassing the military).

raid517

I'm not going to quote you Neon - but I already pointed out that deaths due to friendly fire are not listed on any official government statistics. (I'll leave it to you to work out why). To gain an idea of statistics, you have to go through the reports one at a time and then conclude from the often somewhat (again probably deliberately) obscure evidence, which were real instances of blue on blue and which weren't.

Still no one is saying that Americans are deliberately just targeting anyone, including their allies (even if a larger proportion of their allies do get killed in friendly fire incidents than do Americans) - what is being said is that there probably needs to be much more work being done in the field of the technology of target identification - and that right now that is a highly neglected area. Such incidences are likely to be largely preventable - given the right technology and the right training of how and when best to deploy that technology.

Anyway this is another dead beat debate. I guess when there is not a lot happening in the news, the only thing we seem to be able to do is resort to bashing each other.

I'm getting pretty bored with it.

GJ

BWX

There are plenty of other anti-Americans here to fill in your absence if you want to chill out on the US bashing I am quite sure...

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raid517

You see, you can't even be nice to you. I think most of the people here will give up on the 'America bashing' as you put it, when a lot of you guys give up on the world bashing.

It seems a fair enough deal to me. In the mean time you are likely to simply continue to get as good as you give.

GJ

BWX

When do I "euro-bash" or "world-bash"?? I mostly defend the country I live in from people who know nothing more about it than things they dredge up on hate websites and bias media...

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raid517

Oh, so you really like France and the UN - and all that negative stuff that has been said about Europe in the past that you appeared to agree with, you don't agree with any more?

Anyway, we are not talking about just you. You are not the worst offender, although sometimes your comments do seem as though they are filled with an unusual amount of piss and vinegar when talking about other countries. There are plenty of other people here who have and do and will probably continue to genuinely bash anything that isn't American (usually for simply not being American) and it is to say the least an example of extremely selective reading if you are suggesting you have never noticed this.

You are defending your country. We are defending ours. Don't expect anyone to just give up and roll over any time soon.

GJ

BWX

Since when is the UN a country? I think the UN is an impotent and corrupt failure.
I never said jack about the French people, except maybe the ones that HATE all Americans because we are Americans.. As I said in other posts, anyone who hates someone without knowing them because they live in any particular country is a complete moron.

ok- you can go waste your time searching through all my old posts now...

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Tiger M

If talking nonsense all the time is the way to defend a country, than I feel sorry for that country...

About the topic: you can't trust what the soldiers say, because they are defending themselves, obviously not wanting to go to prison, so they will blame the italians; you can't trust Sgrena, because she was wounded and the man that saved her has been killed, so it is obvious that she would blame the soldiers.

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Miss you, Steve...

raid517

No the UN isn't a country. But it does represent the views an interests of a vast number of other countries. You say that the UN is corrupt, but ignore utterly the often blatant corporate and political corruption that occurs in your own country. It's this kind of double standard that I find difficult to swallow. You paint the US as a Utopia. a place where no one ever errs, where there is no corruption, where it is natural to assume that you are superior to everyone else (despite knowing very little about anyone else), where the rest of the world is weak, feeble and constantly beholding to you for the benevolent assistance your country gives us all.

Don't you think if you express an attitude like that, you are going to very quickly put a lot of people's nose out of joint? Why are you even suprised?

And no I'm not going to search your posts and quote endlessly from them. I am not Neon. I have better things to do than quote nonsense and often offensive comments from someone like you. However that doesn't mean that these comments don't exist. That is what the search feature is for - and if anyone does want to search out your comments over this last couple of years, then that is entirely up to them. In my own regard I have an excellent memory - and I remember only too well many of our encounters though out this period. While you or others may choose to remember only certain things, I think it's fair enough if we just agree to let the record speak for itself.


GJ

raid517

Mmm... and that's your interpritation of what consitutes an intelligent and considered comment is it?

Lol... Fair enough. Each to their own.

GJ