revolutionary

WASHINGTON - "At least 108 people have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, most of them violently, according to government data provided to The Associated Press. Roughly a quarter of those deaths have been investigated as possible abuse by U.S. personnel.

The figure, far higher than any previously disclosed, includes cases investigated by the Army, Navy, CIA and Justice Department Some 65,000 prisoners have been taken during the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, although most have been freed.

The Pentagon has never provided comprehensive information on how many prisoners taken during the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have died, and the 108 figure is based on information supplied by Army, Navy and other government officials.

Of the prisoner deaths:

_At least 26 have been investigated as criminal homicides involving the abuse of prisoners.

_At least 29 are attributed to suspected natural causes or accident.

_Twenty-two are blamed on an insurgent mortar attack on April 6, 2004, on Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

_At least 20 are attributed to "justifiable homicide," where investigations found U.S. troops used deadly force appropriately, primarily against rioting, escaping or threatening prisoners.

To human rights groups, the deaths form a clear pattern.

"Despite the military's own reports of deaths and abuses of detainees in U.S. custody, it is astonishing that our government can still pretend that what is happening is the work of a few rogue soldiers," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "No one at the highest levels of our government has yet been held accountable for the torture and abuse, and that is unacceptable."

To the Pentagon, each death is a distinct case, meriting an investigation but not attributable to any single faulty military policy. Pentagon officials point to a number of military investigations which found that no policy condoned abuse.

Defense Department spokesman Lt. Col. John Skinner said the military has taken steps to reduce the chance of violent uprisings at its prisons and the use of excessive force by soldiers, and also has improved the health care available to prisoners.

"The military has dramatically improved detention operations, everything from increased oversight and improved facilities to expanded training and the availability of state-of-the-art medical care," he said in a statement."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...risoner_deaths

Falstaff

more left wing crap.....
to human rights groups.....WHICH HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS?
yahoo news and the washington post.....great source of information.
as far as patterns are concerned....if find the term or expression useless..

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Sandok

Fallang, if these deaths are published means they are most probably real and america for you is perfect but we just try to show u the truth. Unfortunately, some never wanna see hte light!

Falstaff

I see it everyday, but what drives the thrust of the human rights reports...war is hell and people get killed, and democracy and freedom costs lives. Human rights violations not withstanding before there was an agenda of any sort, it was called collateral damage or an outrage. I dont subscribe to the ideal that it is normal for lives to be taken among innocents if that can be prevented, but I my argument is that Human rights groups are guilty of using the same narrowly focus lense to see things.
What is the purpose of the human rights group anyway.....can anyone answer that? Does anyone have the charter for any group and can recite the terms of the charter.

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TJ-

i dont see the big deal...108...bleh, that peaunts compared to the whole picture of it all...

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new sig comming soon

revolutionary

Collateral damage is unintended, murder and human rights violations are intended.To protect the rights of humans.

Falstaff

murder is an outrage. murder is a crime, and hiding it reprehensible.
are people murdered during wartime? the answer is yes.
are prisoners abused during wartime? the obvious answer is yes
are innocents subjected to the constant threat of violence from internal or external factors? yes.
this is the reality of war and the reality of any country facing rebirth and emerging from war.
Human rights groups are powerless, including our own official mechanisms.....just google human rights issues on the web.
But lets be realistic...what can human rights groups do for anyone except protest, they are impotent.
Our own military is investigating and prosecuting warcrimes by our own military memebers and they are very effective.
It is almost unprecedented for any country to jealously pursue members of our own armed forces for war crimes but we are, it may not meat the visceral demands of armchair critics that have never seen or been in war, nor would it make good copy since it actually identifies a mechanism for removing those elements from our own elite, but hey....thats just the way it is.
So let the armchair critics and whining hypocritical toadies continue to whine and complain, and let those of us that face it everyday remind ourselves that most people look at life through different coloured lenses than we do, we must face life with a jaundiced eye and see what others fear to actually see.

THE TRUTH!!

and that you cannot get from the damn media

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Asmoday

I agree with Jeff on this one, war is an ugly thing....and it doesn't matter if it's an American flag on the arm of the soldier. If it had been Swedish soldiers in Iraq, i'm sure the same horrible things could've happend. War brings out the worst in people.

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Falstaff

I agree, had any armed group occupied IRAQ or any other country we would face this, the most terrible face of war is one that consumes and gobbles human flesh and souls...that is the beast

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Yousaif

in 1998 (the latest report available that I could find), 3,191 inmates in US prisons died. 258 from AIDS and related ailments.

Kinda looks like the military is doing a better job than our internal prisons.

Deaths happen in any large population. I'm not justifying the deaths, just saying that they probably wouldn't have been able to be avoided.

Ask yourself this, though. How many people would be dead if the people that are incarcerated by our military in Iraq were free to roam around attacking military and civilians?

-Yousaif

Falstaff

Yes indeed, and Human rights groups rarely look into our own prison system dont they, I guess it has to be a designer cause for a designer group.

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Sandok

I completely agree with ya... It's only 0.000001 % of the global population

The_Neon_Cowboy

I agree 0.154% ! is what they are whineing about
(I did the math and rounded... and thats just out of the 65,000)

It not only bring out the worst it is amoung the worst it self... to bad it's some times becomes nessacry to engage in what could be considerd "evil" for the grater good. A ends to a means..

Why is it perople like revoultionary cosntlay pick on the USA.... and yet say nothing about the brutality of the terrorists. oh wait as i recall he looks at them as freedom fighters (who fight against iraqy freedom and american protection a like).

Choping of of heads, suicide attacks, bombings, assiation attempts, verry verry horrable things.... that people like revoultionary seems to give them free passes for...
For as they are consiended it seems america can do no right and no one else can do no wrong...

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Anubis-Xp-

A lot of them were so retarded that they were tricked into thinking they were blowing themselves up in public areas their god, some were told their families would be paid large sums of money if they were to fight against the opposition, all lies, but they beleived it all kuz they were despirate, anyways, I dunno how they gain up the courage...nope, theres a thin line between courage and stupidity, their on the far right side of the stupidity side. I think every single prisoner taken by the US troops deserves to be there and they get what ever the US soldiers have planned for them, or whatever just happens to them on its own. I dont think the US troops would put them there for loitering, they were doing something bad, and shut up all u human rights guys, what rights are there in war? You dont even have the right to live in war.

revolutionary

Let me explain something to you, all of you, because you're missing the point.

First of all, yes, people are killed every day, and killing is amplified during war. But this does not jusify it or make it right.

You see, you like to make America out to be this infallible country when it's not. You play the role of the hypocrite, calling others primitive, barbaric animals for what they do, and yet the people from your land do the same thing. Twenty-six people didn't just die, they were most likely tortured and killed by your 'heroric' military, the same military that shoots stray dogs for 'fun' when they're not shooting the 'sand niggers'. Now, I'm not saying the American military is bad, but you don't even acknowledge that this happens. Instead you defend it.

You think the death of 100 people is nothing, and in the scheme of things, it is. But you know what, if someone in your family, like your wife or kid was killed during war, or any other time, I think you'd appreciate the value of life more.

What if someone invaded your country and bombed your house, albeit an accident, wouldn't you be mad? What if they bombed your house and you had to dig your wife and kid's dead bodies out of the rubble by hand? Imagine picking up the shattered piece of your infant child's face and brain off the ground...wouldn't that one life, those two lives matter, even if they just mattered to you? Imagine knowing that somewhere on the Internet there was this cold, insensitive person calulating the percentage of 1 from 6,000,000,000, just to prove the point that that one life didn't matter.

revolutionary

Why do people like you constantly pick on other countries for being brutal, and yet say nothing about your own country's brutality? Why do you look in disgust as a terrorist beheads an American, but act indifferent when 26 people are murdered in your country's protective hands?

Falstaff

I dont know what your agenda is, but honestly no country is perfect, and by the way, what is your country of origin, I am proud of mine despite all the problems we have...at least we have milestones for peace as well as war.
I think your defeated by your own argument against America, because you may have a flawed perspective or perception of reality or the world in general.

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Senor_Mota

They actually had a spot for this issue on The Daily Show yesterday. I know The Daily Show is a comedical and parodical newscast, but the context remains the same - anyone with some common sense can figure out that we're actually "terrorizing" these people far more than the actual "terrorists".

We're not a part of the victims, we're a part of the victimizers.

Jeff's got a point. So many people want to be a "revolutionary" or a "rebel", but their everyday needs claim otherwise. I know quite a few people who claim to be "anarchists" - yet they purchase gasoline to run their 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokees, buy the most expensive groceries possible, and live in a two-story house with leather furniture and floor rugs that cost more than my car.

Too many people are concerned with "rebelling" these days, but that's the thing - you're not really "rebelling" by bitching about every little situation with the U.S. that upsets you and then going to pay your taxes.

So "revolutionary", unless you don't buy food, gas, cigarettes, soda pop, toothpaste, computer parts, video games, etc., etc., support a relative in the military, use a car, or ANYTHING THAT THIS FREE-MARKET SYSTEM PROVIDES TO YOU TO MAKE LIFE MORE CONVIENIENT, LIKE THE COMPUTER YOU'RE TYPING ON , then you're NOT a "revolutionary" at all - you're just another "spoiled-brat of an American citizen" disguised as a hypocrite.

That's the bottom line(and so is this! )

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revolutionary

My agenda, if that's what you want to call it, is to deny liars the ability to spread their lies, hypocritical views and biases.I know there isn't, but it is the common ignorance with a lot of Americans that their country is perfect. People like to pretend, and criticize other country's ways, when America practices the same things that they criticize others for.I am American, born and raised. I love America, and am lucky to have been born here. But I am not blind to the wrongs that this country has done, and continues to do. And in this way America is not special, it is a common country.You can't spread peace through war.And I think you're defeated by your own argument for America.

Defending its every action, when it fits your conservative agenda. You chastise Clinton for the things his Administration did, right or wrong, but defend Bush's Administration for the things it does, right and wrong. Not realizing Democrats, Republicans, Liberalist, and Conservatives are all part of Democracy, the very ideals you wish to spread world-wide.You call me black because I'm the kettle and you're the pot. Tell me, who's prospective or perception of reality and the world isn't flawed? Yours, the military veteran? Surely you jest.

Yousaif

I think that you are really applying stereotypes to a lot of people that you only know through message board posting. Stereotypes is what gets people into the habit of discounting lives.

You call people hypocrits. Don't you feel that the people that were taken hostage by the "insurgents" (I love that word, by the way. Not terrorists, but insurgents) lives' were valuable? The kidnappers CUT THEIR FREAKING HEADS OFF AND VIDEOTAPED IT!!!

DO you see how it can become very easy to apply the same hatred that I feel for the people that cut off those people's heads to all Iraqi's? To all people of Islamic faith? To people that wear turbans? That's where the problem comes into play.

In my opinion, all lives do NOT have the same value. There are people in this world that contribute to the progress of the human race, and there are those that want nothing more than to tear it down. Does that justify killing people? No. By far and away that doesn't justify killing anyone. Should we kill people to make a point? No. All that does is generate resentment in opposing factions. See the above example of the decapitation to reinforce my point about killing to make a point.

I do not think that everything that America does is right. I think that we are taxed too much, that we can't manage our own budgets inside this country, and that too much time and thought and money is wasted by our leaders. But one thing this country does do is care about people worldwide. If people are in trouble somewhere due to natural or unnatural disaster, the people of the US are there helping out those in need.

Do you feel that the former regime in Iraq could boast that only 108 people died in custody? Have you seen the mass graves? Even a "revolutionary" guy needs to see that is an improvement over the previous regime's statistics. Is it perfect? No. Will anything ever be perfect? If you believe that it will then you are either waiting for Jesus to come or you are naive.

-Yousaif

revolutionary

How am I applying stereotypes?Of course their lives were valuable. But didn't American soldiers take pictures of themselves (and some video) toturing and humiliating detainees?

It is a double standard. Americans frown upon insurgents for killing hostages, but defend Americans killing insurgents as a normality of war.Of course I see that. Some people call anyone of an olive complexion a towel head, or a terrorist. It is ignorance, bigotry and racism.

But let's be serious here, this attitude didn't start with the Iraq war, it started with 9/11.It's your opinion, as you said. But whether or not every life has equal value is not up to you. Even if it was, it wouldn't give you the right to treat them as animals, or kill them.Saddam was bad, I don't defend him. Is Iraq better now with American occupation as opposed to Saddam? I don't know. One could factor in where Saddam got some of his weapons.

My point is to show Americans that their country does evil too, and is not innocent.

Yousaif

You stated in an earlier post that you are proud to have been born and to live in America. FOrgive my confusion here, but why do you keep referring to Americans in the third person?

I emigrated to the US from Kuwait in 1988. I am proud to be American. I am proud that America (my country by choice, not by birth) is taking a stand in Iraq against the evil regime that was Saddam's. I know for a fact that the Iraqi people are better off now then before.

You stated that American soldiers took their pictures with the Iraqi prisoners. While that may be true, this was not a policy of the UNited States to do this. This was a small group of poorly trained people that were thrown into a situation that they simply were not trained for.

In general I feel that people need to stop looking at small samplings of the people then applying it to the larger group of the population at large. If we took that small group that was Iraq's leaders of the past and applied that to the entire population of Iraq, then the entire country of Iraq would be dead at our hands.

-Yousaif

revolutionary

If I said "the people of this country", how would anyone know what country and people I was talking about? It just sounds proper to me.I'm not so sure about that. Bush and his Administration continually contradict themselves on the subject of torture. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz aren't exactly "people friendly".

Yousaif

Probably should have said our if you are truly American and not a troll from somewhere else trying to incite people.

-Yousaif

revolutionary

Trust me, I'm American, more so than you. I was born and raised here.

Do semantics really matter to you? Anyone can say anything. Saying "my" or "our country" doesn't make me any more American.

Yousaif

Funny you say that you are more American than me. I had to take classes and renounce all my old allegiances and take an oath to become a citizen (that's the cut-down version, obviously). I had to prove my worth to this country by living and working here, all this time paying my taxes like anyone else.

The only thing that makes you more American than me is that you were born here. I was born in Great Britain and moved with my family to Kuwait, as my father had a job there with British Petroleum.

I CHOSE to become a citizen. You fell into it. Its close minded people like yourself that sour people's impressions of this country. Its funy that people that are born into something and have become used to it are completely blind to how good they actually have it.

The only thing in this country that you can do that I can't is run for President. As a naturalized citizen I am not eligible to be the President.

What makes you American is not just where you were born, though that seems to be the only qualification that you have. Its a frame of mind. Its striving to be better than you are. Its making a place for yourself and succeeding.

If you feel that America is such a bad place, what are you stil doing here? THere are plenty of other places in the world. Its not like you have a house payment or a lease in your parents' house. Get out and see the world and then come back and say how evil America is. Until then you are just spitting into the wind.

-Yousaif

pr0digal jenius

Paying my taxes and eating my cheetos while wearing my "made in China" cotton sweatshop pants...

...just like the rest of "you"..."us"...whatever floats yer overly patriotic boat.

revolutionary

And you know me how? You know where I've been and what I've seen? Who's the real person using sterortypes here?

You're a joke. You think working and paying taxes in America makes you an American, a patriot?

You got a lot of nerve suggesting that I leave my own country. You honestly think I've never pledged my allegiance? Why did I have to "pledge my allegiance to America" every day I was in school here? You think my thousands of days of saying that means anything less than your one group oath with other immigrants?

You try and come off like an Arab, or Muslim for Kuwait, and you're nothing more than a Britain. Laughably. As if you have any insight into American ideals.

I think we all know who the real troll here is.

Dom

I think this thread has ran its course.