Florida Gun Law, legal murder !

TJ- · Apr 27, 2005, 01:45 AM

These gun crazy loons now make it legal to shoot someone on the street or anywhere if they "believe" their life is in danger. Basically if you were fighting me and i "thought" you were gunna kill me, i would legally be allowed to put out my high powered magnum and blow your head off, weather in a restraunt, movie, on the street, or in a mall. I wont be moving to Florida anytime soon!

Quote:

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (Reuters) - Florida Gov. Jeb Bush signed a new anti-crime law on Tuesday that allows people to kill in self-defense without first trying to flee.

Supporters say the law is a logical extension of common law that allows homeowners who fear for their lives to use deadly force to defend themselves from an intruder in their homes.

The new law expands that doctrine to include people in public places who feel threatened and could be subject to death or great bodily harm.

"To suggest that you can't defend yourself against a rapist, who's trying to drag you into an alley, or against a carjacker who's trying to drag you out of your car is nonsense," said Marion Hammer, a former president of the National Rifle Association.

"The ability to protect yourself, your children or your spouse, is important, no matter where you are."

Critics of the new law, called the "Stand Your Ground" bill, have few objections to allowing people to protect themselves in their homes but say the bill will create a "Wild West" mentality in public, where residents may shoot first and ask questions later.

"There are going to be a lot of repercussions," said Rep. Eleanor Sobel, a Democrat. "You could have someone reaching into their pocket and if the person felt threatened he could shoot."

Like many states, Florida courts have ruled that homeowners have a right to defend themselves in their homes. Florida courts have expanded the doctrine to include employees in their workplace and drivers who are attacked in their automobiles.

Outside the home, however, courts have ruled that most victims must at least attempt to escape before using deadly force, a provision gun advocates say puts victims at greater risk. The new law removes that requirement if a person has a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.

"All this bill will do is sell more guns and possibly turn Florida into the OK Corral," Rep. Irv Slosberg, a Democrat, said during recent debate on the bill.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=8303755

digerati · Apr 27, 2005, 04:01 AM

Without this bill, if a person was trying to hijack me and my car by gunpoint, if I shot him would I be on trial for murder?

Dom · Apr 27, 2005, 04:37 AM

[zi0n]aXe, you misinterpret the law. If someone kills someone else and says it was in self-defense, whether it was or wasn't, the incident will be subject to a full investigation to determine if what happened was indeed justified.

Falstaff · Apr 27, 2005, 07:39 AM

I think this gives some clarification to a legal minefield that already exists in the US today, Florida is not unique in this legal approach to guns or any other weapon used to protect life and limb. I think it opens more questions legally than addresses as far as the concerns of property owners. I would kill if necessary to protect myself or my family, and I would not wait for a police officer to show up first to give a statement, I am inclined to purchase a weapon, register it, and wait for someone to break into my property or threaten me first, but I understand why this law exists. There is a huge problem in Florida with property theft and damage, and a disproportionately high incidence of violent crime against women and property owners. In my view, unless voters increase law enforcement and legislate more proactive measures against violent crime in Florida, this is what all the constituents of Gov. Bush got what they have wanted from the past four governers.
Having lived in Florida I can understand why property owners feel compelled to use deadly force to repel or discourage criminals, but it also places huge burndens on the legal system to prove without of a doubt that deadly force was required to eliminate a threat. Criminals may read the papers but they dont care if you have a gun or not, they will come in regardless. I know in the case of my own parents the perpertrators beat both of them and threatened with violence before they took what they wanted. Had my father had access to a gun he would have shot all four of those Hispanic teenagers in the act of robbing his home or died trying, and that scares me the most. I for one dont think that property is so valuable that it should cost human lives, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it means taking life, discouraging crime with the threat of imminent danger then it must be done, our society is going to hell in a hand basket and no BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL is there to protect my family when the criminals come, so I must have a legal recourse, the criminals be damned.....
I would rather have the death of a criminal on my mind than the regret of the death of a loved one or the total loss of property that I as A TAXPAYER have worked long and hard for.
Maybe the threat of violence is what it takes to keep criminals at bay....
As someone that actually works for a living and is providing for my own family, with years of public service to my fellow man, I find it a "catch 22" situation...
damned if you do and damned if you dont.
so I am putting more cartridges in the magazine and pulling the hammer back and waiting them to come over the wall, hopefully I can pick them off one by one, but since the assualt weapon ban is no longer in effect anymore, I can set up a tripod on my porch and knock them off like bottles when they try to jump into the yard....that seems more satisfying and justified.

radTube · Apr 27, 2005, 09:30 AM

So once again I hear that it's the 'BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS' that are to blame for the fact that your 'society is going to hell in a hand basket'. Are you implicating that there's some connection between these 'Hispanic teenagers' that robbed your parents (or any criminals for that matter) and the liberal movement (party/whatever) in your country? What do the liberals have to do with anything? They certainly don't hold any real power in the US, so I'm pretty sure it's not them thinking up these crazy laws that are obviously going to make things even worse.

Am I the only one who's starting to think that the wild west was never really tamed? Are they putting testosterone into your tap water over there? I'm glad I live in a world where I don't need to think about murder and killing every single day...

Go ahead, call me a liberal. See if I care. Hell, I don't even know what it means.

Falstaff · Apr 27, 2005, 01:02 PM

I have to admit that Finland has it share of violence as well. Liberals in my country would have all of us believe that with patience and understanding we can cause a paradym shift in our gun laws and our prison system. In fact the opposite is true, there are so many undocumented aliens, registered offenders on parole and young inexperienced criminals out there providing more than enough work for Law Enforcement, citizens that own property and investments and value their families are quietly hiding their arsenals under the bed, in the car and in the cupboard. It is an epidemic, and frankly I feel that other countries had it right to begin with when they enforced strict laws on immigration, forced people to work and limited welfare and unemployment to those who actually couldnt work.
The same mob that is screaming for more handouts from our federal and state governments are breeding a contemptous sub culture of miscreants that know nothing more than lying, stealing and killing to get what they want...and you know what?, it crosses the color and the culture line.
At least in Finland you can say that the population is homogenius, in America we get half a million illegal aliens a day and a certain percentage of them are criminals.
I say guns will not go away, and the Wild West as you put it has not gone away at all, in fact it is sophisticated and it is deadly.
If your a law abiding citizen and you pay your taxes and support your family you will be protected to a limited extent by local or state law enforcemenet, but that is marginal compared the satisfaction of a loaded 38 or a 9 mil or a 44 or 45 caliber pistol. When used properly not only will it discourage an assailant, it will put a nice clean hole right through any part of their body, preferably the skull and elminate the problem.
I can did up some terrible figures and statistics about Finland, I work with a former embassy guard from Finland, and the picture is not rosy there either, but if you can live your life in peace more power to you, I dont think the Russians will be invading any time soon..

pr0digal jenius · Apr 27, 2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

[zi0n]aXe, you misinterpret the law. If someone kills someone else and says it was in self-defense, whether it was or wasn't, the incident will be subject to a full investigation to determine if what happened was indeed justified.

Yea, but the more loopholes they add, the easier it is to jump through the proper hoops to get off the hook, or atleast get minimum sentencing

Falstaff · Apr 27, 2005, 01:19 PM

that is just it PJ....if the perp is dead, who really goes to court? It statistically rule in favor of the victim and not the perp. In Florida...oh my GOD... I can see it all now...bullets flying day and night, because lets face it, Florida is headed for civil strife. Rich folks will make damn sure the laws are enforced..LOL.
They already have private security as good as any militia, and criminals are praying on each other and on everyone else...sigh...I see it coming..
[color=#003399]Artist: Dr. Evil Lyrics
Song: Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem - Dr. Evil Remix) Lyrics[/color]

Take the baseline out:
No? You dont have to... BOUNCE WITH IT!!

It's a hard knock life for us
It's a hard knock (yea) life for us
Steada treated we get tricked
Steada Free says we get kicked
Its a hard knock life

I dont know how to be no crib on MTV.
God only knows. Got my Mini-me in the GP see how it goes.

Evil's all that I see... you ask me my name? D to the Rizzo, E to the Vizzo, I to the Lizzo, I'm a crazy (its a hard knock
life) mother (beep) y'all knew that.

Austin caught me in the first act that's all backwords, whats with that?
So I'll make a prophesy from the dogs to the mini me.
Gimme an escalade, 2 way bling-bling on Ebay. Domino, mother (beep)

Its a hard knock life (yea) for us
Its a hard knock life
(stick that in your pipe and smoke it)for us.
Steada treated (uh huh) we get tricked
(this is for all my homies in Bruges)
Steada kisses we get kicked

It's a hard knock life (uh huh uh huh uh huh uh huh) for us
Its a hard knock life for us
Steada treated
(ah, crystal, my moto, a couple of behotches, why not?)
we get tricked
Steada Free says we get kicked
Its a hard knock life

I gotta busta move, droppin busta groove feeling fine.
Got an evil crew, Goldmember too. Lick my nine.
Till then, I'll (beep) on my (beep) grand up the (beep) ill call and I'll splooge in your (beep) thats all!
Fizzle my nizzle y'all.
(its a hard knock life)

This is a shout out to HOVA,
God MC...
You all know him, Thats Jay-Z!!
I met him!!
Well I saw him a restaurant once...
It's a hard knock life!

Stick that in your (beep)ing blunt and smoke it!
Yeah, I said Blunt!

The_Neon_Cowboy · Apr 27, 2005, 02:07 PM

What’s messed up???

In California a woman is allowed to shoot an unarmed man justified or in cold blood as long as she says she “felt her life was in danger” it’s a free pass….

The way it was before and how it is most places is you can't kill them unless you absolutely have to and that they call in to question the assailant’s intentions and all kinds of BS. In a lot of cases where it’s a clean shoot someone has a gun on you, you should be able to shoot them it’s only reasonable. I mean come on you run from a man with a gun you going to end up 6 feet under....

People don’t see it as anti crime but people are far less likely to pull a gun or brake in to people houses knowing they are likely to be shot,,,

radTube · Apr 27, 2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallang_jeff

I can did up some terrible figures and statistics about Finland, I work with a former embassy guard from Finland, and the picture is not rosy there either, but if you can live your life in peace more power to you, I dont think the Russians will be invading any time soon..

True, there's no place on earth where you can be absolutely safe from violence. There are places where you actually need to fear for your safety, and other places (like the small town I call home) where you can feel safe enough not to actively and constantly think about survival. I know there are places like this in the USA too.

The point was that there's violent crime everywhere, but I've never heard anyone but an american suggest legalising murder, or giving anyone and everyone the right to carry an assault weapon (which can only lead to more killing), as a solution.

BTW: I can't say that I trust the russians very far (russian readers, don't take this personally). The country is such a mess that anything is possible. That's one of the reasons why we still have our Defence Forces, and I'm certainly ready to defend my country if need be. This, however, has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Crime and war are two different things.

radTube · Apr 27, 2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Neon_Cowboy

People don’t see it as anti crime but people are far less likely to pull a gun or brake in to people houses knowing they are likely to be shot,,,

So people are less likely to kill each other if they all carry guns? I'd be ready to bet on the exact opposite outcome.

bananaman · Apr 27, 2005, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radTube

So people are less likely to kill each other if they all carry guns? I'd be ready to bet on the exact opposite outcome.

I agree, they aren't going to stop breaking into places, they will just be more likely to shoot first

nana

The_Neon_Cowboy · Apr 28, 2005, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radTube

So people are less likely to kill each other if they all carry guns? I'd be ready to bet on the exact opposite outcome.

Actually when more people started carring guns the crime rates actually went down in quite a few places. Criminals will always get guns, it's puting them in the hands of the law abideing citizen that is so powerfull.....

Guns don't kill people, I do! (j/k) people do...
I don't have a gun but I do have a bow and it's just as deadly...
even in a world with out guns people would kill each other just the same...

Falstaff · Apr 28, 2005, 05:49 AM

I dont own a weapon myself, but I know I can kill if necessary to defend and restore, that Wild West spirit that has often been referred to in less than complimentary terms is the spirit of many of our laws and the energy behind legislation for tougher enforcement as well.

Son_of_Thunder · Apr 28, 2005, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radTube

So people are less likely to kill each other if they all carry guns? I'd be ready to bet on the exact opposite outcome.

what liberals don't seem to realize is that guns are out there, there are millions of people out there who legally own them, and thousands who don't legally own them. taking guns away from people who legally own them would first off break our constitution, secondly it would give the thousands of criminals who don't legally own guns a major advantage.

i'm not married yet, but you had better believe that when i do get married i'll have a gun. i'd die to protect my family, but i'd rather kill to protect it.

Falstaff · Apr 28, 2005, 07:25 AM

Ditto Son of Thunder

radTube · Apr 28, 2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son_of_Thunder

what liberals don't seem to realize is that guns are out there, there are millions of people out there who legally own them, and thousands who don't legally own them. taking guns away from people who legally own them would first off break our constitution, secondly it would give the thousands of criminals who don't legally own guns a major advantage.

The word 'liberal' is really starting to annoy me. But anyway, it's true that taking the guns away from law abiding citizens is not the solution. As Jeff keeps saying, the answer might be tougher legislation and enforcement. At least the enforcement part. After all, what good are laws if you can't enforce them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son_of_Thunder

i'm not married yet, but you had better believe that when i do get married i'll have a gun. i'd die to protect my family, but i'd rather kill to protect it.

Good for you. I am married and so would I (not get a gun but die/kill for my family), but I'd rather just not get into situations where this is necessary...

bananaman · Apr 28, 2005, 08:34 AM

Having studied the westward expansion of the US, One thing annoys me most about the "Wild West" mentality is that it is built from the US expansion which was built upon the persecution of thousands of native americans who were removed by force, lied to, and killed.

not the greatest thing to have behind laws etc. :/

Son_of_Thunder · Apr 28, 2005, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radTube

The word 'liberal' is really starting to annoy me

yah, and i'm not really right wing or left wing, it's just the easiest word to pull out to stand for that side of the spectrum.

i'm personally a "why can't we just get along" type of guy, but i do take sides when something i care about comes up. i'm an old fashioned guy w/ a mind that's ready for change and sick of some of the old ways...if that makes sense.

i really don't like the direction america is going, yet i'm still loyal to it. i don't like a lot of the crap that's been going on in the church, but i'm still a devout christian. and my mentality about women is that when you find the one you love you do everything you can to keep and protect them w/out stepping all over their wants and beliefs...but it doesn't seem like the ladies like that idea much these days.

...damn my hero gene...

Apr 27, 2005, 07:39 AM	#4
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I think this gives some clarification to a legal minefield that already exists in the US today, Florida is not unique in this legal approach to guns or any other weapon used to protect life and limb. I think it opens more questions legally than addresses as far as the concerns of property owners. I would kill if necessary to protect myself or my family, and I would not wait for a police officer to show up first to give a statement, I am inclined to purchase a weapon, register it, and wait for someone to break into my property or threaten me first, but I understand why this law exists. There is a huge problem in Florida with property theft and damage, and a disproportionately high incidence of violent crime against women and property owners. In my view, unless voters increase law enforcement and legislate more proactive measures against violent crime in Florida, this is what all the constituents of Gov. Bush got what they have wanted from the past four governers. Having lived in Florida I can understand why property owners feel compelled to use deadly force to repel or discourage criminals, but it also places huge burndens on the legal system to prove without of a doubt that deadly force was required to eliminate a threat. Criminals may read the papers but they dont care if you have a gun or not, they will come in regardless. I know in the case of my own parents the perpertrators beat both of them and threatened with violence before they took what they wanted. Had my father had access to a gun he would have shot all four of those Hispanic teenagers in the act of robbing his home or died trying, and that scares me the most. I for one dont think that property is so valuable that it should cost human lives, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If it means taking life, discouraging crime with the threat of imminent danger then it must be done, our society is going to hell in a hand basket and no BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL is there to protect my family when the criminals come, so I must have a legal recourse, the criminals be damned..... I would rather have the death of a criminal on my mind than the regret of the death of a loved one or the total loss of property that I as A TAXPAYER have worked long and hard for. Maybe the threat of violence is what it takes to keep criminals at bay.... As someone that actually works for a living and is providing for my own family, with years of public service to my fellow man, I find it a "catch 22" situation... damned if you do and damned if you dont. so I am putting more cartridges in the magazine and pulling the hammer back and waiting them to come over the wall, hopefully I can pick them off one by one, but since the assualt weapon ban is no longer in effect anymore, I can set up a tripod on my porch and knock them off like bottles when they try to jump into the yard....that seems more satisfying and justified. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Apr 27, 2005, 01:02 PM	#6
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I have to admit that Finland has it share of violence as well. Liberals in my country would have all of us believe that with patience and understanding we can cause a paradym shift in our gun laws and our prison system. In fact the opposite is true, there are so many undocumented aliens, registered offenders on parole and young inexperienced criminals out there providing more than enough work for Law Enforcement, citizens that own property and investments and value their families are quietly hiding their arsenals under the bed, in the car and in the cupboard. It is an epidemic, and frankly I feel that other countries had it right to begin with when they enforced strict laws on immigration, forced people to work and limited welfare and unemployment to those who actually couldnt work. The same mob that is screaming for more handouts from our federal and state governments are breeding a contemptous sub culture of miscreants that know nothing more than lying, stealing and killing to get what they want...and you know what?, it crosses the color and the culture line. At least in Finland you can say that the population is homogenius, in America we get half a million illegal aliens a day and a certain percentage of them are criminals. I say guns will not go away, and the Wild West as you put it has not gone away at all, in fact it is sophisticated and it is deadly. If your a law abiding citizen and you pay your taxes and support your family you will be protected to a limited extent by local or state law enforcemenet, but that is marginal compared the satisfaction of a loaded 38 or a 9 mil or a 44 or 45 caliber pistol. When used properly not only will it discourage an assailant, it will put a nice clean hole right through any part of their body, preferably the skull and elminate the problem. I can did up some terrible figures and statistics about Finland, I work with a former embassy guard from Finland, and the picture is not rosy there either, but if you can live your life in peace more power to you, I dont think the Russians will be invading any time soon.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Apr 27, 2005, 01:19 PM	#8
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	that is just it PJ....if the perp is dead, who really goes to court? It statistically rule in favor of the victim and not the perp. In Florida...oh my GOD... I can see it all now...bullets flying day and night, because lets face it, Florida is headed for civil strife. Rich folks will make damn sure the laws are enforced..LOL. They already have private security as good as any militia, and criminals are praying on each other and on everyone else...sigh...I see it coming.. [color=#003399]Artist: Dr. Evil Lyrics Song: Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem - Dr. Evil Remix) Lyrics[/color] Take the baseline out: No? You dont have to... BOUNCE WITH IT!! It's a hard knock life for us It's a hard knock (yea) life for us Steada treated we get tricked Steada Free says we get kicked Its a hard knock life I dont know how to be no crib on MTV. God only knows. Got my Mini-me in the GP see how it goes. Evil's all that I see... you ask me my name? D to the Rizzo, E to the Vizzo, I to the Lizzo, I'm a crazy (its a hard knock life) mother (beep) y'all knew that. Austin caught me in the first act that's all backwords, whats with that? So I'll make a prophesy from the dogs to the mini me. Gimme an escalade, 2 way bling-bling on Ebay. Domino, mother (beep) Its a hard knock life (yea) for us Its a hard knock life (stick that in your pipe and smoke it)for us. Steada treated (uh huh) we get tricked (this is for all my homies in Bruges) Steada kisses we get kicked It's a hard knock life (uh huh uh huh uh huh uh huh) for us Its a hard knock life for us Steada treated (ah, crystal, my moto, a couple of behotches, why not?) we get tricked Steada Free says we get kicked Its a hard knock life I gotta busta move, droppin busta groove feeling fine. Got an evil crew, Goldmember too. Lick my nine. Till then, I'll (beep) on my (beep) grand up the (beep) ill call and I'll splooge in your (beep) thats all! Fizzle my nizzle y'all. (its a hard knock life) This is a shout out to HOVA, God MC... You all know him, Thats Jay-Z!! I met him!! Well I saw him a restaurant once... It's a hard knock life! Stick that in your (beep)ing blunt and smoke it! Yeah, I said Blunt! __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Apr 27, 2005, 02:07 PM	#9
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	What’s messed up??? In California a woman is allowed to shoot an unarmed man justified or in cold blood as long as she says she “felt her life was in danger” it’s a free pass…. The way it was before and how it is most places is you can't kill them unless you absolutely have to and that they call in to question the assailant’s intentions and all kinds of BS. In a lot of cases where it’s a clean shoot someone has a gun on you, you should be able to shoot them it’s only reasonable. I mean come on you run from a man with a gun you going to end up 6 feet under.... People don’t see it as anti crime but people are far less likely to pull a gun or brake in to people houses knowing they are likely to be shot,,, __________________

Apr 28, 2005, 05:49 AM	#14
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I dont own a weapon myself, but I know I can kill if necessary to defend and restore, that Wild West spirit that has often been referred to in less than complimentary terms is the spirit of many of our laws and the energy behind legislation for tougher enforcement as well. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Apr 27, 2005, 04:01 AM	#2
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,779 Rep Power: 0	Without this bill, if a person was trying to hijack me and my car by gunpoint, if I shot him would I be on trial for murder?

Apr 27, 2005, 04:37 AM	#3
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	[zi0n]aXe, you misinterpret the law. If someone kills someone else and says it was in self-defense, whether it was or wasn't, the incident will be subject to a full investigation to determine if what happened was indeed justified.

Apr 27, 2005, 09:30 AM	#5
radTube just keepin' it cool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 228 Rep Power: 0	So once again I hear that it's the 'BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS' that are to blame for the fact that your 'society is going to hell in a hand basket'. Are you implicating that there's some connection between these 'Hispanic teenagers' that robbed your parents (or any criminals for that matter) and the liberal movement (party/whatever) in your country? What do the liberals have to do with anything? They certainly don't hold any real power in the US, so I'm pretty sure it's not them thinking up these crazy laws that are obviously going to make things even worse. Am I the only one who's starting to think that the wild west was never really tamed? Are they putting testosterone into your tap water over there? I'm glad I live in a world where I don't need to think about murder and killing every single day... Go ahead, call me a liberal. See if I care. Hell, I don't even know what it means.

Apr 28, 2005, 07:25 AM	#16
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Ditto Son of Thunder __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Apr 28, 2005, 08:34 AM	#18
bananaman banana muncher Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: London Posts: 1,254 Rep Power: 64	Having studied the westward expansion of the US, One thing annoys me most about the "Wild West" mentality is that it is built from the US expansion which was built upon the persecution of thousands of native americans who were removed by force, lied to, and killed. not the greatest thing to have behind laws etc. :/ __________________