raid517

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4661059.stm

I'm gutted. I just don't understand it. What is it that they want? What is it that would make them happy? What is their goal? There just doesn't seem to be one.

At least when we were dealing with the IRA, they had demands, we knew where we stood - we could talk to them.

But what do these people want? There aren't even any demands.

I'm not saying in any sense that we should give in - but knowing what they wanted might at least be be a start.

I have no idea how we can fight this war - or even how we can can we win? When will it end?

And BTW I do blame the US and Israel to an extent for exporting this kind of terrorism to the rest of the world. We never had trouble like this before with Islamic extremists until the US decided to go on it's little (and totally pointless) adventure in Iraq).

And these kinds of suicide bombings first originated in Isreal - where there are a lot of pissed off people who are angry at America for supporting Isreal's supression of the Palestinians. It seems any friend of America is an enemy of theirs.

GJ

Zardon

You CAN never deal with guys like that, you only think you are - trust me on that point.

As for the bombings in london, well there is an off topic thread on that atm, I really am way too pissed to even get a coherant post on the subject.

Falstaff

We understand, based on our own intelligience that the same cell that constructed the mechanisms and funded the cells in Madrid also performed this work, it is unconfirmed but we will know within 48 hours where the bombs were made and almost definitely who or what organization did it....but catching them?
problematic at best, I just went through 30 minutes of inspection and debriefing today on threats against american contractors abroad and the there are over 170 know groups that target European and Americans for terrorist acts...this is getting really complicated...

__________________

Zardon

170 groups?

raid517

With regard to the IRA - we did deal with them. We effectively beat them - which is what brought them to the negotiating table, when they finally realised that they could win through bombing us into sumission. (We also did kill large numbers of them too though - which I guess definately helped).

I am merely stating that this seems different. These guys don't even seem to have an agenda. They don't even seem to have a plan. I mean, what is it they think they are fighting for, what is it they want?

GJ

violat3

latest update Reporting Scotland (Scottish BBC news) teh Army have blown up a bus in Edinburgh through controlled explosion

nitrousoxide52

I just heard on the news, I didn't catch his name but, a man a while ago has tried to bomb the Underground a while ago, but he failed, he was stopped. But, from what I am informed, he took 1000 pounds of nitroglyceride I think it was, and that was what they think the bombs were made of.

__________________
AMD Athlon64 X2 3800+
XFX Geforce 7800GT
ABIT AN8-SLI
BFG Tech 650w

raid517

I think you mean nitroglycerine. And 1000 pounds of nitroglycerine would be enough to take out half of London.

GJ

nitrousoxide52

It was nitroglyceride, a class A explosive, which seems about right.

__________________
AMD Athlon64 X2 3800+
XFX Geforce 7800GT
ABIT AN8-SLI
BFG Tech 650w

Falstaff

these are clandestine cells and known affiliates of muslim extremists worldwide, or wherever we have siginicant financial or military interests.

__________________

nuG

oh my goodness. that is not good.

__________________

Zardon

We did??, is that why Tony Blair let convicted IRA terrorists out of jail to appease Sinn Fein (ran by more convicted terrorists) for this JOKE of a "seize fire", and they are running around the streets in Ireland right now selling drugs and killing people without the press reporting it. Blair has no interest in Ireland, never has done.

You guys dont know the HALF of what goes on here, seriously.

raid517

Who is 'you guys?' I was born and brought up in Glasgow, my mother was Cathloc and decended from Irish stock while my Dad was Protestant from a hard core presbeterian background - and boy did we learn at an early age about the meaning of secterianism. I experienced it on the ground - and I saw people die because of it.

And yes in many ways I think we did win, we did beat them. Now all they are are a bunch of thugs and criminals - who can make no claim to political legitamacy at all. It may be a hollow victory, but we did at least expose them in the end for what they really were.

They did finally learn that they couldn't beat us with bullets and bombs - and despite whatever the current ituation might be, that was still a worthwhile thing for us to do.

GJ

Zardon

"You guys" being the ones who dont live it every day in the streets and "you guys" who mistakenly think all this peace talk nonsense and Mr Blairs actions have had this "miracle cure" for Ireland and its economy and the people who live here. I knew people who died in the OMAGH bombing and the police have known for a long time who some of the guys were involved in that, but due to "political" reasons they were never arrested, ALSO, one of them was let go to appease Sinn Fein. The IRA is still very strong and thriving in Ireland just because they dont show up on the UK mainland TV news dont for one minute think that has changed, nothing has been beaten, they just dont phone in now with their code when someone gets kneecapped or when some guy end up beaten to death in a bar.

Your last line is the most niave statement ive ever seen you post. Tell that to the thousands of innocents who died here. Its not ending either - there is too much hatred for a piece of paper to solve anything.

raid517

Well call me an optimist if you want - but don't call me 'one of you guys'. I am not one of 'you guys'. I did live it, I was brought up on it and spoon fed it, I saw the concequences of it every day in the streets I walked in and in the people I knew. I knew people who went to Ireland from both sides of the fence and who 'took part' in the troubles. So I pretty much lived and breathed it. Indeed that is one of the biggest reasons I opted to try to get out of that city.

But one thing I am aware of is that the only thing that brought the IRA to the negotiating table to begin with was that in the 80's we killed and imprisioned so many of them. Believe it or not I have studied the history of that period - and like her or loath her (and my own personal sympathies lie with the latter of these) it was Margret Thatcher's refusal to negotiate and willingness to take the fight directly to them that pretty much decimated the IRA's fighting capacity at that time. So if nothing else it was almost undoubtedly a significant military victory. They had no choice in the end but to negotiate.

Does that mean they have gone away? I doubt it - but at least they are aware that winning through the bullet and the bomb may not be as easy as they once thought.

To be honest I don't know what your anger is about. The IRA are thugs, they always were thugs - they are always going to be thugs too. But what other solution is there but to try to talk, to try to get things as normal as we can? After all the people who get hurt most if we don't try are those caught in the middle, who are the ordinary people of Northern Ireland.

You seem to be very angry, but you don't seem to be able to offer any answers. What is your solution? 'Kill them, kill them all?'

Because if so, how does that make you any better than them? All that makes you is a barbarian too.

GJ

PS

I don't really want to go down this road, every time I remember people talking about this stuff back home, it usually resulted in someone getting hurt. So you will forgive me if it isn't my favorite topic.

Zardon

Oh dont get me wrong, I dont get angry on forums with people, after all what is the point - I class myself a veteran of forums I know most people debate but very few actually change their views so freqently you are just stating your views knowing that at the end most people dont listen so frequently I dont bother which is why you will probably notice I dont say much in here. That said, when the subject of Ireland is brought up and this optimistic and unrealistic bullshit that is called the "peace agreement" people seemingly thinking its a wonderful and aweinspiring move to end all conflict I feel the need to state a few things, after all it is my home and I find it hard listening to people who seem to think they do know everything about this area and are possibly unwilling to change their views. There are some things you dont learn in books or via research. Thats not just indictive of Ireland but all religious conflicts. It frequently gets "sugar sweetened" by authors who have alterior motives.

However you are right, I dont have answers, neither do you, neither do the politicans. And you know why? there arent any. What point are you making with "kill them all?", I wasnt aware I said that, but let me ask you this. If you saw 5 people being killed by terrorists, five innocent civilians, 3 women and two young children. You then caught these men, these men who have no compassion for human life or any respect for any living creature. Do you feel these men should be given fair trial and luxuries in prison?

The problem with the united kingdom is this. The government is weak, they pander to minority extremists in all walks of life, they are "politically correct" even when it sacrifies the safety of their citizens. That is what is wrong with this country.

There are never any diplomatic solutions when you deal with extremist religious fanatics. Thats not just the IRA either, as london found out today.

You are an intelligent guy raid, but your only downside is you never actually listen or sway your views, you are always "right", even when sometimes there just is no black and white, right or wrong.

OldBuzzard

Raid...whilst you and I have had our differences in this forum, please know that my prayers are with you and your countrymen.

You ask "What do they want?" In the simplest of terms, they want you, me and every other 'unbeliever' dead. Why is another matter. The ones doing the actual dirty work don't really know. All they know is that from birth they have been taught to hate the infidels. Their leaders want power, and they will use those poor brainwashed people to their own ends.

As tragic as this event is, Britain has seen worse, and has survived, and will survive this. Don't misunderstand me when I say that maybe now you know what we felt on 9/11. It's just not the same when it's your homeland that is suffering. I know that this can't possible affect me that way it does you, but I do know what you guys are going thru, as I have gone thru it too.

God save Britain...God save the Queen!

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

raid517

I don't have any answers - all I know is that at some point unless you are prepared to go on killing endlessly, you will have to sit down and talk. What else can you do?

Which is what kind of disturbs me about these other people. I mean they don't seem to even want to sit down and talk. Not now and not ever - or so it seems. They are not even interested in any kind of negotiation. Their only demand appears to be that we should all die.

While I welcome OldBuzzard's sentiment I'm not sure if it's misplaced - I wonder slightly who he is referring to when he says 'they'. Personally I can still make the distinction between the vast majority of law abiding citizens who live in this country - and the few random mad men who do stuff like this.

I have to say, I do think they are becomming a lot more organised though - however I think too that this is something that possibly in our meddling that we have created too.

GJ

OldBuzzard

'They' are that minority that are being used as tools.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

raid517

No that's not what I'm saying. (Not that I think jail is really all that much of a luxuary - but anyway). What I do mean though is that the only real way to win is not to become them. Not to behave, act or think as they do - not to have knee jerk reactions where we suspend our own freedoms in order to try to punish the terrorists (and then end up only punishing ourselves), or where we start shoving everyone with and even slightly dark complexion into concentration camps, or where we see the need (or are made to see the need) to grant our governments and our beurocrats any more powers than they already have. I'm saying that we win by standing apart from all that - that we stand above it all - so that at least we can know we are right and that we are better than them - and that when we are fighting with them - our fight IS just. We need that distinction so that we can know what it is we are fighting for. We defend what is right and decent and good about or society - while not giving as much as an inch of our freedoms or our common dignity away to them.

We don't behead them, we don't torture them - and we certainly don't gather them all up and 'kill them all' by pumping bullets in the back of their heads, or blowing up en mass 100's of civilians who have nothing to do with them or with their grievances -whatever those grievances may be. That is their way - but it is not ours. We are either better than them or we are not - and if we are not, then they are right and utterly justified to hate us.

And that is what I am saying. Indeed that is all I have ever said.

GJ

dj_stick

complete destruction of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that does not follow their beliefs

__________________

Ev!L-aLphA

you know what pisses me off the most?
i was watching mtv and they were making it look like the worste thing that has happened.... and dunno just seemed wrong how when something happens like that in a different country its a huge deal but when stuff like that happens monthley in other countries they just ignore it...

shit like this happens once or twice a month in israel and other countries and LOTS of ppl die... i dont see 1 thing about this on mtv....

dunno it just really urked me when i was watching mtv today :-/

i mean im sorry to all of the families with dead ones n injuries.. im not saying that its good that it happened or any thing.. just makes me mad that when it happens in other places no one seems to care :-/

__________________

R.I.P
8/8/04
4/21/08

raid517

You won't learn that much about world events on MTV. Try watching a different channel.

GJ

raid517

GJ

Sturmbahn

Does anyone still believe that this is just 'America's problem?' What is the motive of the terrorists? Why do they willingly, almost happily, destroy themselves to kill others? Islam DOES have a history of this. During the middle ages there was a man, named Hasan, well versed in Islam and mind control who, in a quest for power, created the assassins (this is the origin of the word). He created a version of Islam and used mind control tactics developed by the Fatamid Dynasty of Egypt to create a hidden empire that struck terror into every corner of the Islamic empire, and even into the ranks of the Crusaders. Very interesting stuff - http://www.alamut.com/subj/ideologie...hitti_Ass.html. The level of mind control was similar to current Scientology - http://www.alamut.com/subj/ideologie...Doctrines.html. It would not surprise me at all if similar devices are used by power hungry terrorist leaders to corrupt impressionable Islamic youth.

Razgriz

my sister is in london right now. Her flat was two blocks away from one of the train stations that was attacked. Her friends and her were just about to leave to get on that same train. Scary.......

raid517

I still don't agree with all of this hysteria and whipping up hatred against all Muslims. There have always been extremist religious elements throughout history. The crusaders were a pretty fanatical bunch themselves - and did more than their own fair share of killing, maiming, slaying and 'assasinating' those who stood in their way. No doubt people at that time asked too, just exactly was it that these people wanted? And again the answer (although it was even clearer then than it is now) was that they wanted to destroy 'ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that did not follow their beliefs.'

But they, just like the few manicacs who carry out acts such as these, were nothing more than a warped and extremist faction within a much wider, much more diverse and much more tollerant and accepting society.

GJ

Ev!L-aLphA

i know but on the news and everything else... they make it such a BIGGER deal than they would in countries like israel...

when my mom got home she was like did u hear about the bombings and i was like yeah.. and than in the same time we said they make it such a huge deal when crap like that happens all the time in israel. :-/

__________________

R.I.P
8/8/04
4/21/08

BWX

You'll never learn. Blaming this act of terrorism on the US is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this subject yet. Be pissed off, you should be, as I am- but be pissed off at the right people.



Answer: They want you to suffer and die


Answer: Kill the terrorists.



Notice the answers to these questions have nothing to do with the US.
I feel the same way about these attack as I do any other terrorist attack, including 911, (which in the past I have heard you and countless other members of DH say we deserved and/ or brought upon ourselves BTW).. How would you feel if a bunch of people here started telling you that you deserved it?

These attacks are acts of brainwashed scum who want you and me and everyone else who doesn't believe what they believe-- to die. Blaming the US and Israel is pointless. Blame the people who did it. It is their fault, and only their fault. They are sick cowards that don't deserve to be alive..

__________________

Sturmbahn

Wow, you didn't read a friggin' thing from either of those links did you. Researching a topic would sure give your view a better leg to stand on. The Crusaders, notably the Templars, borrowed many aspects of the assassins. Hasan didn't rule over all Muslims, though he would have liked to, just a fanatical sect (much as the terrorists are a fanatical sect of all Muslims). Hasan's Islam and orthodox Islam are very different. Islam is a religion, Hasan's version converted Islam into a tool for his tyrannical rise to power. Here's a quote for you - "Below the grand master stood the grand priors, each in charge of a particular district. After these came the ordinary propagandists. The lowest degree of the order comprised the "fida'is", who stood ready to execute whatever orders the grand master issued. A graphic, though late and secondhand, description of the method by which the master of Alamut is said to have hypnotized his "self-sacrificing ones" with the use of hashish has come down to us from Marco Polo, who passed in that neighborhood in 1271 or 1272." Does "fida'is" sound similar to fedayeen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen?

So no, this is not hatred against all Muslims. Like Christianity, Islam has its divisions - everything from goodhearted versions to fanatically crazy ones.