Zardon

I read this today in the Sunday Express, a UK newspaper for those of you non_UKers. It was quite chilling and I suggest everyone checks it out. Im going to have to type it in which will be quite painful, even though im a quick (-90-100wpm) typist!

_______________________

The Majority of Muslims are "passive terrorists", who secretly condone attacks on the West, an Islamic scholar as warned.
Muslim-born Tawlig Hamid - who has had close links with Al Qaeda's top brass and predicted the attacks on New York, Madrid and London - warned of worse to come in Britain.

And he called on the Government to act against the "cancer" of extremists hiding within the Muslim Community.

The Scholar, who has been forced to conceal his real identity after death threats from Islamic fundamentaliss, says he was schooled in radicalism and indoctrinated into terrorism as a young man before escaping to the West.

Born in Egypt, he once prayed alongside Al Qaeda's leaders, including Osama Bin Laden's deputy Ayman Al Zawahari.
He has now warned "There will be future terror attacks on Britain and they will make Thursday's bombings in London look like nothing. I expect a major crisis in the next few years. I expect a major chemical attack on the water supply or on food in Britain."
He said the failure of Western governments to act against the growing radicalism had allowed it to flourish. "This is like someone with cancer pretending they dont have it", he said. "They ignore it but it will just grow and grow and eventually it will kill them."

Hamid, author of The Real Roots of Islamic Violence, had founded an Islamic movement promoting peace but said trackling fundamentalism will fail unless the teachings of Islam change.
He said: "I believe that the majority of the Muslim population are passive terrorists. The Western World classifies people into religious fanatics and moderates. We do not have moderate Muslims in the Muslim world. In Islam, the distinction is non-religious and religious.
"Among the religious, very few are active terrorists commiting terrorist acts, but unfortunately the vast majority are passive terrorists. In their hearts and minds they support terrorist acts against the West and they have a symbiotic relationship with the active terrorists.

"The Imams condemn terrorism and behave well in public to protect themselves from revenge attacks but they continue to preach what they really think in their mosques. The people who come in front of the media cameras and the Government are the same people who are praying for Bin Laden in their mosques."

He added: "There will be no more than one percent of Muslims who are active terrorists, but that is still a huge number of people. Western governments will not be able to solve this on their own. They will fail because they cannot understand the mentality behind the extremism.

"There is no use in giving concessions. The more you concede, the more generous you are, the more it is seen as a weakness and they will attack you again to get more concessions. The UK has been harbouring barbarians and allowing them to speak out in public. The problem needs to be solved from within by reformists as well as from without."

Hamid has first-hand experience of Al Qaeda's fundamentalist teachings, having prayed alongside Bin Laden's right-hand man for a year after he joined Jamaha Islameia, the Islamic group run by Al Zawahari in Cairo.

He has also met with Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, who faced protests when he visited London at the invitation of Major Ken Livingstone after supporting Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel.
He said: "Violence is a fundamental part of Islamic teaching. In Islam, the books themselves preach violence against non-Muslims. It is an idelogical war against the West to force you into subjugation before Islam. We live in the dark ages.
"They brainwash you the moment you enter the mosque as a child. Every Muslim child is brought up with the idea that followers of Islam are superior, of Islamd conquering the world.

"It is easy to say Islam is the religion of peace, but the reality is actually the opposite. For the majority of Muslims, every terrorist act is a small victory against the West. They dream about being victorious against the infidels. So they become silent and that silence means approval. Unfortunately, such hatred of non-Muslims is generated by the Islamic religion itself against those who do not follow it, irrespective of their deeds."

And he added: "They only way to make Muslims satisfied with the West is for Westerners to submit to an Islamic or Taliban-like-system, stop their freedom, and suppress women."

Julia Hartley-Brewer
Political Editor
Express Newspapers (Sunday Express).

Dark Lord

bunch of lovely fuckers if you ask me.

__________________

El Kapitano

Something I've been saying (quietly) for years, as far as Islam is concerned Westerners are infidels and are ranked alongside dogs and pigs as unclean....follow that mentality through and you get?

mkk

He comes out as a hateful nutcase to me. Traumatised by his early experiences with a few fundamentalists he seems to have turned around 180 degrees, speaking in a quite fundamentalist way against muslims in general. Acting out in way very similar to how he was supposedly taught, just in the other direction.

Sandok

That was a chilling read... Very freaky. How can people still live so naively? Religion is the cause of 99% of the problems on this planet. I was born during the wrong times Seriously, with more attacks, people will stop protesting as much against the wars and soon, a new 3rd world war will happen. I'm certain the western countries will react harder and stronger than now. What a sad time we live in

Zardon

You are completely right.

Zardon

Well normally i would also get the feeling he was being "bitter" and perhaps exaggerating somewhat, however the EXPRESS in the UK is known to publish higher "class" articles than the mainstream gutter press and the guy in question has actually proven in the past to be correct with his assumptions (as stated in the main text above), hence my post as I feel it might have some relevance.

mike2h

& have been during all of recorded history. i do not think most people realise that fundamentalist islam has been at war with the world since its inception. it is not just a belief, but a way of life.
one part of the aricle i definetly agree with- their is no negotiating, western mentality just does not get the concept that this is not a war to gain a little clout, the only negotiating they do is if they gain something from it t ofurther their overall aim of fundamental islamic supremacy.
they have no problems killing each other over this shit, how do you think they feel about slaughtering non beleivers, especially given some of their teachings.
it really is time for the rest of the world to stop playing nice with these people & do whatever needs to be done. this 'reign of terror' is only going to get worse.
while i feel terrible for the majority of islam, the guy has a point, if they are not willing to clean their own house then they are going to have to deal with the consequences of having it done for them.

__________________

Warpy

Do the terrorists have chemical weapons though? I would have thought if they did, they wouldn't have held back with previous attacks in using them. The act of injecting as much fear into non muslims is their weapon.

I might also add that any child growing up in the times we face and hereon is going to be tough. Since the enemy is so extreme in their opinions and forceful, I can see no other option but unrest for many years to come.

Do you think that these madmen are using religion as an excuse to fuel their desires to dominate and eradicate non belivers? If what this man has said to be true, the enemy is alot bigger that what it appears...

EDIT: This is also reported here in the Guardian newspaper

__________________

Sandok

Well, I might doubt chemical weapons too. I mean, from NY to Madrid to London, the attacks are weaker (though still terribly horrible). But who knows to what extreme these people will be ready to go in the future. All muslims are not like this but in the times we are living in, I think that the rational people are starting to get REALLY fed up with this.

We don't want to live in fear. We don't want you freedom of living a normal life taken and sooner or later, the islamics (whether radical or not unforutnately) are going to get what's coming to them.. Either they change, or they pay. It isn't what I want, but it is most surely what is going to happen.

The_Neon_Cowboy

It's also the solution to most of of the problems on this planet and the glue that hold
societes togeather. The basis and foundation from wich the rule of "law" came to us.

The stuff the extremist are doing and preaching falllows no FAITH, surely not the teachings
of the koran as they "claim". They've tooken a vaild religion tainted, twisted, and
perverted it for thier thier own devices. They arent like the other 99% that actually
partice that religion.

With out religion say you shouldn't steal, people would steal like crazy. For example I find
a wallet full of cash I reuten it to the owner. As opened to pocketing it and say tuff luck.
Religion teaches us morality. It also the bases for law around the globe. Those religious
belives that have been held has been transformed in legal systems of government.
Weather the goverent admit it or not despite and claim of seperation between church
an state. It come to belifes and most people have realgous belifes...

With out religion there would be no law, with out no law we would have choas an dis
order.We would mame and kill eatch other like animals at will. The entire world would
be like a 3rd world country "at best" people dieing over basic food, shelter an resources
take what ever we want. Mix in also the worst of the middle ages, it be closer to liveing in
the ages of kings then the way world is today. religion has played a vitally important role
in socity since there has been socity. Its part of the foundation that keeps order...

No matter what the religion these things be true:
* You belive in an afterlife
* you belive how you act in this life effects the qauilty of the next & eturinty
* You belive you will be punished for eturnity in the next life for your "sins"

If everyonebelive only this is all you have and no after life then. people would , steal,
kill, mame, rape, imprision eatch other as they pleased. Ther would be no law and no
government. No one to answer to.... We can't have that

__________________

SexPistoL

I dont think religion is evil.......I dont think power is evil........I dont think people are evil.........I think people who use there religion and power to influence people to do harm are evil, irrespective what religion they believe in.
Let me explain how I feel about the current world we live in. We live in a technologicaly advanced world now, where as events happen they are instantly shown around the world, into nearly every country and most homes. So that the majority of people see or hear what is presented to them by the media. The way the media can and do present these images and writings, is manipulated according to there masters wishes, just like the religious fanatics.

I am not saying that the media is in any way to be blamed for reporting these horrendious event, but they should not sensationalise them, for viewers rateings and satisfy their political masters who pay there wages. Giving all the attention to the lunatics, only contributes to the terrorist cause. Where as in the past only a few extremists had accsess to the "cause" now it has given maximum publcity to all. Probably aiding in recrutement to others, who in the past would never joined.

Terrorism is nothing new, it has always been around, but most of the time, it never had the publicity it has today. The events that have gone on recently, horrendous as they have been, should not be given all the air time that they have, as it only does two things
1. Aids the terrorists cause, by giving maximum publicity and helps their recruiting.
2. Justifies various goverments reasons for their "wars for oil"

__________________

Falstaff

I have to agree that people not relgion are the sole source of most of the problems on this planet, most religions preach tolerance and peace. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists etc...all have used force to protect, attack and destroy, but it wasnt religion per se, it was power that swayed the argument for war.
the haves and the have nots are perhaps the oldest two groups fighting for power in the world, regardless of race, colour, creed or country..

__________________

Lakevren

I'm gonna have to reword that.


Zeal is the cause of 99% of the problems on this planet.

Know many religious persons out there personally, few of which are zealous.

I know lots of zealous people personally (including me, but of course only in my mind. I don't act in zeal, thankfully), and religion has no part in it.

Religion as a solution? Yes, if it wasn't twisted to hell and back (pertains to some religions).

Christianity might be a religion I would still practice if it weren't so doctrined and replaced throughtout the long centuries. It might be a religion I would still practice, if it were 1700 years ago. The plain simple way. None of this Bible crap, none of this old testament, new testament. None of this "blah blah you go to hell" crap.

When you have to deal with ignorance, you have to deal with that zeal that fights back, trying to repress the real truth, not wanting to hear.

Look at all the people you see, and you wonder what the hell is wrong with many of them. Answers to many of this is zeal.

__________________

Zardon

Well as you agree its the cause and solution, its a pretty shaky concept if its causing wide reaching deaths in the first place.

I wonder how the planet would hold together without this need to pray to "a god", and without the irrational belief many religious people have that if you dont believe in my god ive the right to end your existance.

Ðamage™

"That's the problem with religion: you beat your way past the clerics, fight your way through the demons, stand before the holy of holies, and when you rip away the veil, there's nothing there but a mirror"

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

__________________

• [COLOR=black][COLOR=red]ATi[/COLOR] Bios Flashing: The Proper Way.[/COLOR][COLOR=red][/COLOR]
• [COLOR=red]How to properly Install a VGA/CPU Cooler.[/COLOR]
• [COLOR=black]How to uninstall\install your ATi vga drivers properly[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]It's not who we are, but what we do in life that defines us.[/COLOR]

dj_stick

the interesting thing about that, is something that not too many people know

the major religions. christianity, judaism and islam pray to the same god

the archangel that first appeared to the moslem prophet mohammed is the same archangel that visited mary to notify her of the saviour in her womb

the real difference is the way these religions are practiced.


And another thing that some people don't understand is that islam is a relatively young religion, began around the 1300s or 1400s IIRC - so no one can legitimately say that that is the only true religion in the world, which is what many islamic followers believe

__________________

Zardon

Well there is only meant to be "one" god anyway, right? Of course the different factions of followers of that god all believe god has set out specific rules and regulations to follow. To some of these factions and followers "their way is the right way", so whats the solution regarding the other "followers"?

kill them.

Ubergrendle

Here's something to disprove the article author's original premise:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm

Given that a Fatwa is the equivalent of a Papal Edict, and the Fatwa specifically states that it is immoral to tie Israli/Palestinian issues to Britain, I don't think they could be much more succinct in their position on these (and possible future bombings). I doubt this is getting alot of press though...doesnt' seem to fit the popular view of Islam right now.

I'm a secular humanist (e.g. atheist) and I distrust all formalised religion...but on the other hand I have not seen any mainstream religion openly condone or promote violence since WWII.

Also, in terms of religion being the great evil of civilised history, I hate to do this but I'll have to offer a few econtradictory examples: Stalin (Communist - atheist), Hitler (Fascist - atheist), Mao Tse-Tung (Communist - athesit), and Khmere Rouge (Communist Despotism - atheist) -- there's your body count for the 20th century, none of which is religiously based. I suspect all of the religiously motivated deaths would end up being a rounding error once these are totalled up.

__________________
Veteran of the PC Microchannel / EISA wars of the late 1980s.

Ðamage™

I disagree with your bottom paragraph to a point, sorry.

People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .

Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

Adolph Hitler: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

I think this statement above all else rings true for almost every leader of the world, that has made a death toll part of his regime. Also if you have ever read Mein Kampf or the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which I have.. then you would know that Hitler makes many points of his belief system to be that of the Christian faith or the Bible.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

__________________

• [COLOR=black][COLOR=red]ATi[/COLOR] Bios Flashing: The Proper Way.[/COLOR][COLOR=red][/COLOR]
• [COLOR=red]How to properly Install a VGA/CPU Cooler.[/COLOR]
• [COLOR=black]How to uninstall\install your ATi vga drivers properly[/COLOR]

[COLOR=black]It's not who we are, but what we do in life that defines us.[/COLOR]

Falstaff

If you seek God, you can find him or her...it isnt hard, not preaching here...but God is there.
If you choose not to believe I respect that too.

__________________

Zardon

What do you feel about the comments made in this thread about people killing for their god or differing beliefs jeff?

Stop It

Ah, the Daily Express, purveyor of complete shite for many years (Since that Desmond imbecile took over), lap dog to the daily hate (Mail), to say that the majority of Muslims are "Passive terrorists" is pure slanderous hate, and is totally false, its like calling all Christians war mongers because of the crusades, pure fantasy.

As to the prediction of a worse attack, well, there might be, there might not, its pure speculation.

Edit : Please excuse my language, but the Right wing media in this country has a lot to answer for, they have single handedly turned all Muslims into "terrorists" with precisely this sort of article, its so easy to destroy race relations in this country like they do, I havent seen any attempt to actually repair the damage they cause, all sales targets and no conscience.

__________________

Sandok

Stop It, I bet you 1000$ we haven't seen the last of terrorist attacks in the west. From muslims. Fanatic ones of course! I know all the muslims are not eviil (I know many that are damn cool) but they aren't very religious. The moment somebody takes their religion to the extreme (or uses it for their own means), then there are problems.

And seriously though, how can we stop future attacks? I mean, it isn't possible just to lock up "suspectful people"... It's an impossible war till the attacker matures and understands that bombings and all do NOTHING.

Zardon

What on earth are you talking about? purveyor of pure shite? thats hardly a constructive comment is it? Did you even READ it? the daily express didnt write it, they published texts from an ex scholar who has had proven dealings with Al Qaeda, regardless of your feelings for his honesty considering the fact he had prior terrorist actions CORRECT before they happened (also documented). This has NOTHING to do with the media, the media are merely presenting the views of a person who has had dealings with these people, they arent writing on speculation nor are they making things up. I dont know if everything is fact but at least read the article before commenting. "purveyor of pure shite", really

Warpy

The comments in that article are from an individual that is muslim and probably see's his comments as representing Islam and their faith. It has jack all to do with the newspaper reporter or the Daily Express for that matter.

EDIT: Just refreshed and saw the comments above.

__________________

HMS-Dreadnought

Well I'm not religios,..
I don't beleve there is a god,
and I don't beleave in an afterlife, either.


But I don't go around doing them things you said.



The only people who do them things are the 'fuck-ups' of the world.
And they did what they did, regardless of religion, or the the lack of it.


It's got nothing to do with religion, ..


u just think it has because it was written in a book that you read, and was told it was true by another person who read the book, who was 'also' told it was true by somebody else, and so on, and so forth. and you don't question it.

Religion has nothing to do with morality, or behavor...

Just because it says these things are wrong, dosn't mean that is the reason why people don't do them.

The fact is, it is 'us' who create GOD in our own image. not the other way around.

How else do you explain there being an 'Old' and 'New' testiment?

"Oh the old testiment didn't quite fit in with our belefs as they are now.., We'll just have to wright another one"


The fact is, (and you see it happening today) when religion is ssen to be painting the wrong image for todays world, they change it.

__________________

My E)motions are as follows:
HMS Clan forum

Falstaff

I cannot bring myself to say that God or my church wants me to kill anyone, having gone to school with muslims and catholics and even bhuddists in Japan, I find they all embrace a philosophy of tolerance unless they are physically threatened.
But I have never met a Zionist, or a Cathar, or a Klansman (that I know of), or a warrior monk or priest, so I cannot say truthfully what it takes in terms of ones religion to kill, but that begs a larger question.
It is still wrong to kill according to my faith, regardless, but we give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, so we must protect our family, obey our warrior kings, and with mercy administer to our wounded friends and enemies.

__________________

SFOSOK

Last time I remembered, I read a passage from the Koran that has Allah telling his people to seek out the jews and (well not in these words) kill them.



If you do not believe in any higher power, than you believe yourself to be the highest power, and therefore you are a moron.

Zardon

Well apart from the fact calling people morons should be kept to the flame zone, what gives you the right to a higher knowledge than anyone else, have you met god or can produce solid proof of his existance?