OKIGiveIn

What is your source for this assertion? This much tampered with collection of fiction has almost no literary merit whatsoever that I can see!

Almost no consistent plot, various writer contributions that disagree with each other, full of grammatical and spelling errors, etc.

Has it perhaps won some award voted upon by an authoritative literary body that I haven't noticed?

And please don't mention the number of sales - have you looked at the best seller lists to see what constitutes the best selling books? - not a lot of quality literature is there?

GOG

As one of the greatest writers of rock lyrics said about religion:

"The closer you get to the meaning, the sooner you’ll know that you’re dreaming"
Ronnie James Dio

Falstaff

a revived thread is not a revived argument...LOL

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SFOSOK

especially if the person who created it just frankly doesn't give a damn about anything anymore.

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Callandor

Less talk more action's all I'll say like I said to someone yesterday.

Edit: And don't expect it to change immeadiately either.

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Falstaff

lets just kill the thread....

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Sandok

I shall keep it alive I don't even know the subject...

Falstaff

You are a baaaaaad man

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Sandok

Mouahahahahaha

Iroth

I realize this is a dead thread, but it was at the top of the list and it was an interesting read.I have two responses for this one.

1. Sometimes complaining is what motivates people to take action.

2. Anytime somebody is put into a position to make decisions that affect others lives, then those who are affected have every right to complain - regardless if they voted or not.

Sadly, yes this is true with a lot of people. If you look at the way things are, at least in the US, a good chunk of the population already know who they are going to vote for in 2020 - nevermind that nobody has announced their candidacy.

To some extent yes, but it's never exactly the same thing. Call it social evolution. Will everyone always agree? No, most likely not.

Would you rather we end democracy altogether and move towards a theocracy? Seems like we're slowly headed in that direction anyway, thankfully over time the countries overall political climate swings from left to right like a pendulum.

That's a very wise approach. About the only thing I agree with you on.

That's not entirely true. People can make those changes and do so on a regular basis. It's called local elections and ballot initiatives. I can understand being disenfranchised on the national level - it's all for sale anyway. It's the local elections that will affect your life in the most direct way. Followed by state elections. Those are the races to focus most of your attention on. If you find that the majority of the people in the city and state that you live in differ in opinion - you can always move to another one that's more inline with your views and beliefs. Same goes with countries if you want to get into extremes.


1. You could always enroll your kids in a christian school, or attend one yourself. They exist specifically for that purpose.

2. Not so much. Every human being has ingrained in them a general sense of what is right and what is wrong. It's developed through age and experience. It has nothing to do with a book. It has to do with a conscience - that very thing that we're told seperates us from animals. There are other 'morals' that aren't so easily defined in one's self. Those are usually taught through society and indoctrination and those are usually the ones that are the most fucked up when looked at objectively. I believe those are the one's you are referring to? That's what parents are for. Don't like the job that some parents do? That's the beauty of it - you don't have to like it you just have to accept it.

Do you mean studied or taught? There is a significant differance. Over time it has been both studied and taught and look where we are today. Also, I'm sure there are many Jewish and Islamic people who believe the same thing about their religious books - who decides which one? You? One thing to keep in mind is that the Bible has gone through thousands of translations to get to the version that you have today. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Bible, as it's been translated today, was put together by Constantine. He decided which gospels went in and which ones didn't. Feel free to do some more research on that on your own.

While this country was first settled by the pilgrams, who came here to avoid religious persecution, it wasn't founded by them. The founding came much later. The seperation of church and state was created to avoid exactly what you're talking about - a theocracy. That's what religious freedom is all about. Being free to practice whatever religion you choose. Not what religion somebody else chooses for you.

When you say it was founded on 'Christian' principles, I'm sorry but that's a BS excuse to put one religion in front of another. If you take a look at what just about every religion teaches, what all the major ones teach, you'll see that those principles you are refering to are universal. Think back to the ingrained sense of right and wrong and use this to expand on that. The problem isn't that people are moving away from what God teaches, the problem is that people are too concerned with the differences and the semantics to realize that they're all praying to the same God. (Speaking of literary pieces - would a rose by any other name smell as sweet?)

Nobody is innately beholden to the Bible. God, if you believe in him/her/it, gives you that choice. Instead of being concerned with how other people or society as a whole stacks up to what the bible says, concentrate on how you stack up to it. If you read the bible again sometime, you'll see that it's all that is required of you. Worrying about somebody else's 'sins' isn't going to save your soul. Worrying about your own just might.

Done.

OmegaRED

I can't think of any reason for the Bible to be in the public school system. If it's treated as a work of non-fiction then it's a terrible morality teacher with mistreatment of women and gays and encouragement of intollerance; plus the whole sacrificing your child thing isn't a very moral thing to do. If it's treated as fiction then the multiple authors, rewrites and contradictions come into play making it a horrible mess of jumbled ideas. Much better to study Shakespeare.

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SFOSOK

@ Iroth, good response though this was mainly made to provoke a reaction I'm glad some sort of thought and discussion took place.

Also, do serial killers have that same moral implant?


@GoG, I'm sorry dude but Dio is a moron.







Also I don't really have thoughts on this right now. I've calmed down quite a bit since this...unfortunately

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Esaz666

Politicians are just the followers of the followers and they cant even get that right.
Democracy is a great idea but ruined by money and big business, but what to do, i havent voted in years myself but still have a laugh at the nonsense and misinformation we are fed, there has to be some system for society to function.

We can sometimes change things, we all joined together to get a 3G mobile phone mast stopped in our local area and got the local MP to help and we won, so all is not lost, sometimes things can be changed at a local level, i even got a quote on the front of a newpaper from it , heh!.

i just feel sorry for the Tony blairs and George bush's of this world, all that weight on their shoulders.

Its good to have a talk to get things off your chest, if no-one criticized then nobody would hear about what is wrong or right in the world.

SFOSOK

Who told you that nonsense?

Democracy is a horrible idea.

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Esaz666

LoL, it reminds me of the ancient Greeks, who our version of democracy is based, when they lost the war they had killed the only person who was
warning them against it. One of the most truthfull men that has ever lived 'Socrates'. Just the kind of thing you would expect from people who are unaware and need someone to blame, kill the truth!

I am thinking who's gonna get the blame for Iraq?.

Maddogg6

Compared to what other kind of gov't?
What type is better?

SFOSOK

Communism is a better idea.

Just even harder to maintain in the real world.

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Maddogg6

So than, in reality, its not a better idea?

Nothing in reality is perfect - democracy is closest to 'perfect' - its just imo - passive America has allowed big business to run this country into the cess poll its quickly becoming.

Wait - your supposed to go inti the armed forces - no? - they will take someone who thinks communism is a better idea than democracy?

SFOSOK

No, just beat them

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Sandok

Agreed, in theory, it's best on paper... Usually doesn't work perfectly but no denying it, Communism (Marxism) is a better idea.

Judas

Making any form of religioin mandatory breaks free will. It also imposes a specific religion by reading a specific bible. None of it can be proven as fact as of yet, and everyone may beleive it one day or another. But reading a book or beleiving in a religion doesn't bring you any morals to rely on. It's growing up, being taught by your surroundings what is wrong and what is not. Unfortuneatly, i find that nearly everyone is showing incredibly immoral signs. I really do think we are in for a shitload of trouble here soon.

When you can't trust your own neighbor, you can't trust your children or parents, when the world falls into a bottomless pit of fear and doubt with more people pushing you in then there are willing to pull you out and just as many of both are sitting back not sure what to do, figuring that you will get yourself out and it's your own responcibility.

Seriously people, we are going to shit here when you remove all the masks that everyone is wearing ~> "everything is fine, what a wonderful world" kinda smiles and giggles. don't get me wrong not everyone is always doing that, but it's getting more frequent. And it's even more horrendious to see people that volunteer for things, while they appear to be giving a hand, there are other things going on at the time or behind the scenes. It seems while there is one single truly good person, there are nearly 100-1000+ that are out to get each other including that good person.

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Sandok

What you find moral might be immoral for some and vice a versa... Everyone has different values so...

Well isn't that whate life is all about? It's not a fun, pleasant and enjoyable ride, it's difficult and tough and creates or breaks people. It's human instinct! We are animals deep down, thus we'll behave like that. Cuthroat and harsh

Maddogg6

Well that might be true for *some* things... but consider this... how would you feel in someone elses shoes - and make decisions based on that.
How would you feel if some one conned you out of your life savings - if you would not be 'happy' about it - consider it 'immoral'.

How would you feel if your girlfriend had a fling with someone else - if not 'happy' - don't do the same with someone you know to be in a relationship - consider it immoral.

And if the above would make you 'happy' to be on the receiving end - you would have to fall within a very small percentage of people some would call - 'masochist' - and is probably a result of some other serious mental issues.

But if you were to place your self in others shoes - when considering 'moral' or 'immoral' - the situations that arise that is 'subjective' (as you suggest) would be quite slim if any - now that I think about it.

For all the drivel found in a bible - the one 'do onto others' bit - is words to live by if we wish to have a world that doesn't resemble this...
IE - it doesnt have to be this way - imo.
edit: as we humans *do* have the ability to consider others emotions - something less demonstrated these days it seems . /edit

Judas

Basic animal instint is one thing, having the will power to cut it out is another, frankly i find more people reverting to the ravage instint, doing things on an instinctual fling before they even think about what they are doing, i mean if i wanted to do that, i could do it, what stops me from killing the person beside me if you really want to go down to just the basic instinct. Wheres the line being drawn there.

What may be immoral to me or moral, can be different for others, i have no problem with that, but there is no reason for someone either physically, verbally, mentally, be sour about anything.

I'm very much unreligious, but i'll take the commandments seriously enough. It doesn't matter where they come from, i don't think they arrived in the matter that people think they did, who the hell cares, the simple fact of the matter is that they ring quite well and have a good moral reasoning behind them, NOT a religious one.

Life isn't living in fear and distrust and doubt and dishonor, if anything that's a horrible life, unfortuneatly were i see ourselves heading.

Life in general is what we all make it, and we COULD live a very pleasant, excellent and outstanding life if we actually worked somewhat together instead of falling more towards the dark ages. We can easily compare what's going on now to pillaging and burning the villages down back then. While people may see this as an extreme, seriously we are worse off then the dark ages was.

it's still a sad day.

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Esaz666

Thats one of the things that is good to try and fix,ive worked on it in myself a bit , the urge to be mechanical or animal like , if you think about it, next time someone insults you ,try to become aware of the emotion your feeling instead of just acting out the response. Wait a little time before acting, people waste so much energy on conflict with each other, its just pointless. If someone gives you a present and you dont except it where does it go ? - back to where it has come.

Morality is subjective in a way on the cultural view, there is only really one main rule ' do unto others as you would have done to you ', you can`t go far wrong if you can live by that.

When your living in the city and things are bleak it does bring people down a bit , ive seen many friends die from drugs or end up in mental hospital because of bad shit in life, but there is allways hope and light in the darkest places.

People have got a part of them that will allways point them towards good in the end, thats all i can hope for myself and others, to learn from our mistakes, we live to experience and progress.