SFOSOK

I think it should (except if there were medical complications and the mother was forced to abort the baby because it would die during birth and have a high chance to kill her). I mean its killing babies. And how come the father does not have a choice whether the baby lives or dies? At the very least women should not be allowed to abort their children unless they are 18. But its still slaying an innocent human life. Don't post on here how inocent people die without abortion anyway cause it does not have anything to do with this. I also understand that even if abortion was outlawed there would still be places to kill your child (with more crude methods). But I welcome that, any mother willing to kill her own child should die with it. Its the purest form of selfishness. And calling it pro Choice, wtf is that, thats like saying when your are 23 your parents could just be like, I'm sorry son, we don't want you anymore we decided to abort you yesterday. Its sad really watching the downfall of moral standards in society.


Murder is murder.

Zelig

mur·der
n. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

After conception, the unborn young isn't even considered to be a fetus until the end of the eighth week. Outlawing abortion completely makes no sense at all, embroys (unborn young up to the eighth week) aren't "human" in any sense other than that they have human DNA, like any other cells in the person's body.

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quanta67

What is so 'sacred' about human life anyway? That's what I don't get. I mean vets abort animal fetuses every day - and yet no one complains about it. If it is a risk to health, or may cause financial hardship, or might lead to overcrowding or other 'social' issues, then hey life is tough (as is death) much tougher than a lot of you people seem to imagine so I don't quite see where this fake sentimentality fits into it all.

I don't really get into the debate too much about when does lfe start, because it seems to be a pretty arbitary choice you could say 22, you could say 40, you could say in the womb, or you could say that guys kill many potential babies every time they jerk off - so really it's pointless. At the end of the day I think you just have to look at the whole picture and decide whether a featus is viable or not - and that involves social, medical and ecconomic grounds too - not simply whether a woman is or is not capable of behaving like some kind of biological baby producing factory.

The people who bitch most about this sort of stuff are usually the sort of people who have never really had a bad time and have never had to make a single tough decision of their their lives. If you could actually experience some of the horrible things these people experience then I'm sure as much as you might deny it now, that it might cause you to think again.

TJ-

kill em all', humans are a disease.

We dont seem to have any problems killing people in wars, why should a freakin fetus matter!


http://www.hardornot.com

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SFOSOK

lol, that was a very developed answer, but I am guessing that you were either to tired or didn't care enough to try. : ). And just because something isn't considered human it still has life. Ever thought that they say it isn't considered life so they could make money from the mindless masses? Also I saw a video on stem cell research where they doctors took out the baby (or fetus) and used a saw to sever its spine. The fetus jolted then rested, so I think that qualifies as destroying life. America is still ruled by the worlds standards. Goin to hell in a hand basket is the correct phrase.

SFOSOK

+ no one can know that they are not human or have no soul, they just make educated guesses, and thats not good enough when it comes to life or death of a new being. It just shouldn't be our choice.

Dark Lord

i have no problem with it. if its the mothers decision, go for it and dont let anything stop you.

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Pompey

It shouldnt be outlawed.
Do you honestly think women who choose to have abortions are ready to be mothers or are fit to me mothers? Its practical, the world is already struggling to feed itself and Every unwanted child cant be adopted. Its better than a child being born into a life of hardship.
Its done in the early stages of pregnancy, embryos dont have a developed brain or feelings.

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Pompey

http://www.abortionfacts.com/

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AttroPheed

no it shouldn't be outlawed. the only women getting abortions are those that feel they would be unfit mothers. the fewer children born to unfit mothers, the happier our society.

this is the type of person you want raising 4 children?

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br00ksintexas

I think it's a womans choice, since it's her own body and her decision ultimitely. Hell, I'll even buy her the coat hanger.
Seriously, if it wasn't legal, then we'd be reverted back to back alley abortions like we've all heard about before. And, for those "right to lifers", do you eat meat, fish, chicken, pork? Those animals were alive before someone decided to kill it so you could eat that fat burger. Why stop at just allowing humans to live, why not overpopulate with animals, too? Watch a video showing how animals are slaughtered in the meat industry, then tell me who's got the better ending, a fetus, or the animal.
Also, when it comes to harvesting embryos for stem-cell research, isn't the optimal time for harvesting in the first half of the first trimester, when the "fetus" is about the size of a peanut? I'm sorry, but if this fetus were "alive", then shouldn't it be able to "survive" at this time?
Let's say at 4 months an expectant mother miscarries. They don't issue a death certificate. Typically, depending on the state, it's not even concidered a livlng being until the latter half of the fifth or beginning of the sixth month. Again, wouldn't you say this signifies it not being a "living being"?
As a parent, I would've rather aborted my children than have them, knowing they were going to be given up for adoption, or worst case, spend their entire childhood in the foster care system and growing into a world class fuck-up. Not existing, atleast to me, would beat the fuck out of existing in a loveless, meaningless, world of shit.

How about, instead of abolishing abortion, put a cap on it. You get 2, then you're manditorily sterilized. Of course, an abortion after a rape wouldn't count against this. People like your friend in school, with 4 abortions before she's even 18, should'nt be allowed to reproduce. What I'd like to know, is if her trailer park got her a 6-pack of abortions at a discounted rate.

Zelig

Asume no humans have souls, problem solved.

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quanta67

I wouldn't go that far perhaps. But there are certainly groups of people in society I would consider are suitable for the occasional cull. I mean a few years ago, some specially bred disease resistant rabbits escaped from a rabbit farm in New Zealand, they quickly spread to epedemic proportions, and eventually even made it accross the water (presumably as stowaways on cargo ships) to Australia - where again they spread like a wildfire, destroying and consuming everything in their path. In the end the New Zealand and Australian government enacted one of the biggest mass culls in history, killing perhaps several million animals. They even offered a bounty on the rabbits of about a dollar (AU) a head - so there was plenty of motivation for people to go out and gun them down.

What I often wonder is so different from this scenario - and the scenario that we humans currently find ourselves in? There are sections of our society who simply do not care about the Earth, or the limited resources it has to offer - and who like a palague of locusts, would happily go on consuming everything in their path thoughtlessly until everything that was good and beautiful and useful about this Earth was gone. So perhaps in real terms this is a problem that should be dealt with in a similar way to any other infestation that we might have? Not that I think it will ever happen - but nonetheless I do often despair of it all. And yet there are some among us who want to bring even more people into our Earth. When I wonder will they be happy? When we are all standing shoulder to shoulder and are unable even to move anywhere any more?

In any case there is a lot of hypocracy going around. I mean a lot of guys who bang on about the 'sanctity' of human life, have no problem at all about sending young men to places like Iraq or Afganistan to get their heads blown off. It seems obvious to me to say that if you are against the taking of life you should be against the taking of life period. Like so many things these people say though - just like the book they usually accuse of inspring them to say them - their entire phiosophy is riddled with many double standards and often blatant contadictions. Which is why personally, I will never take anything to do with it.

GJ

briteshadow

Look! It's moving. It's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, IT'S ALIVE!
Mary Shelley's, "Frankenstein"


The issue of abortion is a very complex one, awash with many emotional and moral implications. The most common reasoning, behind most anti-abortion arguments is that, since the "fetus" is alive we must protect it. But, this logic seems contradictory to normal human behavior: We kill cows for our meat, we kill insects which have invaded our home, ect. If life itself is not the variable that determines if we are allowed to destroy something, then what is?

Ah, flesh and blood endowed with personhood; that unquantifiable, undeniable, thing within all of use that makes us more then animals. Is a mass of cells that has never experienced the outside world a person? I do not know. Philosophers have struggled to answer this quandary, as long as we have existed. The supposed answer is the corner stone of every recorded religion.

If one is to negate the religious argument, as one should when creating laws. One would instantly see there is no answer. The only thing a reasonable governance can then do is release the decision to the general populous, to decide on their own; using their own moral or ethical set.

So in short, the mother and father have the right to chose what happens to their egg and sperm, and what its current form means to them.

SFOSOK

because a girl is irresponsible enough to have sex b4 they are ready for children, they should ahve to bear the weight of a child. It's their responsibility, there should be no easy way out. Still sad to see how people throw around life like it is a joke.

SFOSOK

I believe also pro=choice is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Well that would also mean that your parents could still abort you if they wanted to right now. Its the same damn thing really.

Zelig

Yeah, so the *child* obviously deverves to get punished for his/her entire childhood for having an irresponsible mother.


Except I'm alive and human, the things getting aborted are alive only, not human beings.

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AttroPheed

and society should have to bear the weight of the unwanted child raised by an unfit mother (who was, of course, an unwanted child herself) growing up and stabbing someone and then spending life in prison (with all the other unwanted children of unfit mothers) on the taxpayer's dime?

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AttroPheed

It's a bit difficult for me to take you seriously as a pro-lifer

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woody239

if you think abortion should be outlawed, then give an exception right after you state your opinion, then how exactly is that being outlawed? i do know what you mean, and can agree with you up to a certain point. it should never be banned in america though, even though it very well could. it's the woman's choice. i can't always agree with her choice, but that's what it is - her decision. it's not your baby, my baby, or anyone else's baby. that child belongs to whoever it is inside of and that's it.

i don't understand why this topic has always sparked such a debate. if a woman is in good enough health to have a healthy baby, it is my opinion she should have the child and if she is not fit at the time for motherhood, put the baby up for adoption. but who am i to say what a woman should do with her child? it's not mine, it's hers. and i know you say it's killing a baby. but it's hers to kill if she wants to. is it wrong? who knows? who are you or anyone else to judge a woman having an abortion?

i can't imagine too many women having an abortion for the hell of it myself. there's probably a good reason behind why they happen. do you personally know people who have had abortions? i do. and in the particular situations these girls were in, i can honestly say they were better off having killed their child. it's a sad thought to think, but it's also a sad world to live in sometimes and that is the reality of it. the main reason i think it would be a huge mistake to outlaw abortion is that if a woman decides she does not want to have her child she is going to find a way to stop it from happening. women would be better off having a place to go to so it can be properly performed rather than doing it like it was done in the old days.

if you feel so strongly against abortions there is only one thing you can do. if you get pregnant, don't get it aborted.

Asmoday

Indeed

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SFOSOK

I agree that adoption should be the main alternate, not abortion.

LHC

I think I might have to agree on the child not having to grow up in a harsh scenery all because of a teenage girl (or older) went and got pregnant becuase she "wanted a thrill". The mother's irresponsibility isn't fair to the outcome of how the child grows up..but that's not to say the girl can go out and do whatever she pleases

Read the book "They Cage the Animals at Night". Great book, story of an 8 year old boy who had to keep living in orphaneges and foster homes because of the mother's problems. Doesn't particularly apply to abortion or anything, but just relates to how the child can grow up if an unsuited parent keeps the child (though it could be much worse).

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SFOSOK

Lol, also just joking guys. I'm not really that pro life I'm more Anti-ignorence and world pressure.

woody239

anti ignorance you mean? haha, jk... i always hated people pointing out typos. anyway, i had to say i was seriously wondering about you reading some of your other posts, because it seemed like you were just trying to get a good debate started but on the other hand i haven't read many of your other posts so i thought you might have been dead serious. thats the reason i didn't go off on you because i'm still new here and wasn't sure how to take some of the other stuff you posted. good to know the people here have some sense about them though, there were some extremely good points brought up about the issue.

SFOSOK

Well I usually start off very controversial with waht I say then Futher explain my point after. The reason I do this is to tap into the true emotions of the people to get how they truelly feel on a subject instead of just kinda half assing it while trying offend the least amount of people. I do this by trying to offend a lot of people when I start, mostly the extremists of issues. I am actually quiet light hearted in life and very understand of people's problems or situations. Just I like to poke at people's minds and see what happens online because it really doesn't make a difference. Also I was trying to disprove that Driverheaven is the one stop source for news, computers, and politcal / religion debates. But I was unsuccessful because I have learned that not only do a lot of these guys know a crapload about computers, but they probably know even more about life. This is truelly a one of a kind site that is more developed in thought than I originally gave credit for. My main goal now is to try and help these members to their full potential by covering topics that most do not want to argue over. Understanding your enemy is your step forward. I also wish the members of this site to educate others. I have seen quiet a bit of this from the wide array of members here. The development in these discussions are really amazing, and I think the members of this site should take advantage of it. No matter how much what someone writes pisses you off, try to understand where they are coming from with it. I mean, I read every one of Attro's posts without getting pissed off because I can at least relate to how he feels with one example from my life. All I'm asking is that everyone just puts themselves in their oponent's shoe's and does research on both sides of the story (un biased research) before coming to any real concrete solutions. I myself am a decent Christian, but I am still open to hear what anyone has to say.














Once you close your eyes, cover your ears, and shut your mind, knowledge becomes useless.

trodas

Abortion right is definitively the womens choice and no-one on earth should talk about it - men's are not going to have the child 9 months in their body and not even give birth it, so men's should not have a single word about it.

Now, you say:
Well, yea, you are right. However, did not you notice that humans aren't anything else, but the most advanced predators on the planet?
Don't shit yourself with some else definitions as being intelligent or something like it. I see people killing themselves because one grup believe of other "so called god". And instead of looking for answers, they rather kill each other. Like it prove someone right in the case... Is this intelligent life?
I don't think so.

Futhermore, humans kill to eat. Every meat in food you eat has been killed. Death is natural part of life. Accept it. You are going to die, so Im. Your food has to die, so you are too going to die. It cold be in next five minutes on hearth attack, or in year or so in Army (fighting for others wealth) - or you die like a old man, 60, maybe 70 years from now on.

And even if you did not eat meat, the vegatables you eat are live too - by the definition of life, as we looking for it on Mars, or elsewhere in space It grow, it multiply - it is a life.
You kill it and eat it, so your life can go on.

You are doing it everyday, you just did not call it murder anymore.

But no matter how you call it, it is still a murder of life.

Now you want to ban something that you and another 6 billions humans on face of Earth do everyday to womens?
By witch right, for christ sake? You are not the one that will give a life, and neither Im. But I can assure you, that it is hard, it hurts and also make girls sad, how big they become. Now show a little respect and leave the choice to them, will you?

MIG-31

You won't get very far on this forum by calling other members who disagree with your comments (Or thoughts) by calling them A**Holes...

As far as i see everyone here is entitled to make there mind up on subjects like this..Arguments are supposed to be of an even minded debate.

This is quite an old thread and this should die...It may depend on your responce.

How can anyone respond to that comment when a baby is born from a Womb & not a stomach ?

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Zelig

Since I'm not really sure what you mean, and am guessing you're not even posting an argument, there isn't much room for me to respond here.

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OmegaRED

Judging by your grammar skills I'd have to say you have the education of a late term abortion

Abortion is a very difficult issue and not black and white like you see it. Not everyone bases their decisions on fairy tales and imaginary places full of fire and smoke.

Wrap your simple mind around this one, if abortion is murder and murder is a capital crime should women who have abortions go to jail?

I suggest watching the documentary "Lake of Fire", it was by far the most difficult debate on Abortion I've ever sat through and summarizes just about every side of the debate.

Not that I care what "Anti Abortion" thinks (probably just found this thread on google and came here to spout holy rantings) but I'll quickly throw out my opinion on abortion for the rest of you fine folks who've stumbled upon this aborted thread.

I believe a woman has the right to decide what goes on with her own body, this includes deciding if she wants to carry a baby. The father relinquishes his right to decide if he wants a child the moment he impregnates a woman, after that it's all her decision (perhaps she wants to keep it and he wants the abortion - too bad for him).

I don't care whether a fetus is a human being at X number of weeks; it's going to be a baby eventually, not a puppy or a kitten...a human being. This is why it is not a black and white issue. There is the deliberate killing of a human being being done here but it must come down to the life of the living taking precedent over the life of the unborn. The moment you start picking and choosing which conditions abortion is allowed (such as rape) you open the door to a hundred other justifiable reasons. What if the women loses all her limbs in an accident but is still able to give birth? Should we take away her choice then? I could make up reasons all day I've got quite the imagination

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