Zardon

Those of you living in the UK who have ventured into a newsagent today may have seen the front page of many papers, I thought the front page of the daily express was straight to the point and is the thread title of this post.

For those of you who havent seen it, it is basically about a school in england who sent a girl home for refusing to remove her cross, the piece of jewellery around her neck. It is the latest event in the neverending campaign of the United Kingdom to pander to ethic minorities. There is also the fact that some cities in the UK have refused to allow christmas celebrations and decorations, even calling it "the festival of light".... why? so as not to offend muslims. Im not quite sure how the situation would work reversed in muslim countries but im pretty sure they wouldnt stop their celebrations in case they offended christians.

Now after saying this, let me make it clear im NOT a christian, im basically an atheist but I find the double standards of many governments at times to be quite sickening.....

So, id love to hear your views, is the world changing? is this important, is it the first step in a new world order?

mkk

I'll just say I'm quite surprised to hear it. In most other countries I've read about it's more about restricting the use of so called obvious symbols that fall mostly in the non-christian cathegory, while allowing normal size necklace crosses and other typical christian symbology. The better way ought to lie somewhere in between this multitude of dual standard regulations siding against minorities, and the unusual other extreme that you describe happening in the UK. I'll keep your heads up in mind.

Vikingod

I personally have mixed views on all this sort of stuff. Over all, I think religion isnt a good thing when taken for anything more than a moral base (I actually only think the difference between a religion, and a cult is political influence... cant remember who said that, but its a good quote). Secondly, and again, this is all personal opinion, I dont think any religion should be aloud in any public facility. I know this may not be the most realist view, as religion is as old as timem, and increasingly dominant in our (the worlds) governments. As far as this case goes though, is this somethign that is worthy of front page news? Is there nothing more important than what happened in this school, or is this just the media trying to get a rise out of the masses.

I dont agree with any double standards, believe me, and I dont know how things are with these double standards, in Europe. But, if a muslim cant wear their cloth on their head (forgive me for not knowing its name, but fuck it, I dont care that much), then a Christian should not be aloud to wear their cross, simple as that. To real put an end to the double standards, bigitry, and separatism, we must take away from all, or give all back.

Best thing to do... people just mind their own damn business. Let people do what they want, leave them along, and thety should leave you alone. It rediculous how this school yard game of "he-did-she-did" has gotten so predominant in the world today. Everyone is offended by what everyone else does and what everyone else thinks. Society is too nosey, and too scared of everything.

Really, when you you think about it, what does it matter if someone wraps a towel on their head, or wears a stupid piece of medal on their neck to make themselfs feel better, like they are part of a team? Its silly, in this day and age, something as silly as that can offend someone. Its not even an emotional offence, its a political one, and one driven by fear and misinformation. Its nothing more than media/religion/political driven BS, because people are so bored with their own lives, that they have to go and screw around with someone elses.

Falstaff

I have seen a similiar trend here in the USA for the past 40 years the ACLU has waged a legal campaign against the relationship of church and state to the extent that they even do Pro Bono work for anyone that seeks to eliminate an reference to God in and on state edifae and documents.
Our country was built on the foundations established by God fearing people so it seems natural to see references to faith in schools, and government monuments for example.
But it appears that all religion will be banned if the liberals have their way.
I dont know about Ireland but taking away a childs right to wear her religion or mark of her faith is tantamount to a legal war....

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niceguyrichy

personally i think the whole thing is quite ridiculous and very sad at the same time. but this kind of state enforced censorship has been rumbling on and will continue to do so for some time I would imagine.

I know from having a young child how the schools have changed already.
she comes home and sings state aproved nursery rhymes

'baa baa happy sheep.....'

cos black sheep might be offensive etc
and so it goes on.

look at it from certains angles and there's a hint of third reich in there.

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Grace

I find this extremely...sad? Or perhaps foolish. Or even worse.

If every person has the right to believe what he/she wants, he/she also has the right to wear a cross if that is what they want. They had no right to question her to begin with, not nearly send her home. She liked to wear a cross; another person can wear whatever they want.


If anyone even dares to ever question my sister about wearing a cross at school, I'd break his/her leggs. She likes it, it is my present to her, she wears it most of the time. Simple as that. No one will ever tell her what she can and what cannot wear.


This 'liberal' thing went way too far. In order to ensure someone's "liberty", they force another into some silly superstition.

Zardon

Not that it really matters but it was actually a school in England not Ireland, although we have our fair share of issues to deal with.

I just have concerns that the UK government seem to be increasingly pandering to ethic minorities even if it means at the loss of identity to the majority.

MIG-31

Might as well kiss goodbye to the "Season of goodwill" and xmas altogether if we can't celebrate xmas with trees and decorations..

I do sometimes think that some of the racism (which i'm not) can be in-sighted by jumped up twits who call themselves Officials (government/council officials that is).

But i would hate to think what could happen if christians wanted to ban the muslim's "Devali" with the decorations involved in this...

So it's ok for christians can change what we beleive in.......Yet another case that racism can only be one sided...sure it is!!,But which way i don't know.

Would not like to know what the future will bring the way things are going at this present time.

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klevo

This is SICK. How can someone tell you not to wear a cross or other symbol. What kind of crazy people do we have in our goverments?

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Sandok

Meh I really don't know what to say. In a way it's good because it avoids conflict but freedom is lost too so....

craig5320

Not being funny but are they stopping the muslim girls from wearing head scarves?

Ummm.... No

My GF is currently in teacher training and she's not allowed to call a blackboard a blackboard anymore, how pathetic.

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Sandok

Damn that's MESSED up!!!! I tell ya, the world is gonna become a living hell with religion taking more and more importance.

Zardon

you have got to be f*cking kidding me........

MIG-31

The age old nursery rhyme went a few years ago also... Ba Ba Black sheep...

Anyone remember the character on the labels of Robertsons Marmalade.... He went to..

He sure is not kidding you

These were just a couple of things that appears to of started the ball rolling. They are simply words with no meaning...!

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Sandok

I wonder what it's called now... The colored board?

Falstaff

We must all be politically corrrect now I suppose...
damn the ACLU and damn the liberals...

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GutterPunk

lol @ sandok

I think this is pretty pathetic. I find it sad that now the gov't is controlling our lives more and more. It seems more like a dictatorship telling us how to celebrate a holiday (if even to celebrate it all) and to tell us that we can't even wear a piece of jewelry (or clothing in some areas) that represents a part of ourselves. I think it has gone way too far

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Zardon

Or maybe the "coal coloured board" or the "non racist but im darker than grey board".

such a lot of arse.

Vikingod

agreed, I dont think the leftys are the problem, its the conservative right. What ever happened to people just keeping their views to themselves, and letting others think what they want to. Everyone is always right, and everyone else is wrong. The trend now seems to be the conservatives trying to enforce their views and make big (most religion oriented) changes to everything. The leftys seems to have calmed down in that sense, maybe a bit more excepting of others. Personally, I tend to be a bit old fashioned, but excepting of others views and preferences (its only polite isnt it?) I guess I just dont care what everyone else is doing, and what they think.

Zardon

Well you see its not even just being politically correct. It is the fact that the UK government feel by giving the ethnic minorities GREATER rights it somehow makes everything alright.

I will say this, the UK is losing its identity and we seem to take in everyone who just hops on a boat and lands here. The citizens end up paying for them via taxes.

This is however somewhat off the track of the original post. The point is, is it fine to give the majority less rights and the freedom of expression to give those in a minority more?

pr0digal jenius

my mom too, is a teacher, and while that isn't the case here, it's similiar shit that comes down the pipe that makes me hate her job.

Due to low self esteem amognst students, no matter how badly you fail something, the lowest possible grade is a 55. Anything else is "humiliating, and unduly below the failing mark"


As for the cross, I hate to be long winded, but I believe it's time for a hsitory lesson. If you don't care, don't bother reading this, but I think many, like Allan and myself, will find this quite interesting.

First, let me begin by sayign that I am christian, and am extremely interested in translation of the bible, as well as omissions, and why it is the way it is. The bible was originally in Greek and Hebrew(new and old testament, respectively), and MUCH controversy comes from poor translations, particularly the King James version, as well as the catholic chruch's ommission and denial of many manuscripts, such as the dead sea scrolls,a nd the books found within the apocrypha.

Now then, in the new testament, in the original Greek, the word used for 'cross' and 'crucify' are Stauros, and the verb Stauroo mean "a pole or upright stake", and "to fasten to a pole or stake". The cross originated from the Chaldean[Babylonian] symbol for their god Tammuz[god of the Sun], who was symbolized by the initial of his name, the Tau. In the 3rd century A.D., when the church was slacking it's ties to certain doctorines, and allowing pagans to enter the system in order to gain prestige and power, and the pagans were allowed to retain many of their symbols, such as the Tau, which eventually evolved into the cross, by dropping the top cross member to the mid portion of the symbol, creating an even oriented cross: +.

Many will also point to Constantine and his vision with the cross imposed upon the sun and the statement "in this sign you shall conquer". However, at that time, the only way he could have seen the cross we all know today, is if he had been influenced by the Gnostic Manichean half-christians, as they were the only ones using that symbol. he was almsot assuredly not, however, as coins from his era contain the image of the Babylonian solar cross. It's interesting to note that the vision he had of the cross was imposed upon the sun, and many think he may have been enamoured with the sun god, which puts a different spin on the vision altogether. His edict in 321 on the keeping of sunday can actually also be explained in this way, as it states within the edict of this being "the venerable day fo the sun"

More proof lies within The Catholic Encyclopedia, which states quite simply "the sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization." It then goes on to discuss how the Copts[Egyptian Christians] adopted it from the Tau symbol of the Egyptian gods stating "In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross."

On another note, the Labarum [Chi-Rho], which are the first and last characters of Christos, was also the symbol for the Chaldean sky-god. It was later adopted by hadrian, who was also a pagan worshiper like Constantine had been...but that's a whole nother lesson.

Asmoday

Well, I have something for you all....

I remember a couple of years back there were some schools in my area that didn't allow the National anthem or the Swedish flag to be raised at the graduation day. It might offend the muslim kids attending the schools was what they said...
This was right after some extreme right and neo-nazi bands were popular with certain kids, but I don't see how banning the national anthem and the flag would make those kids like foreigners any more. Rather the opposite i'd say....

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Zardon

Nice read. Im not sure if any of you Ukers saw a documentary on sky TV recently about the muslim faith and the way the soldiers in those countries are trained. The camera crew filmed a small group of men training and they were carrying guns and running through houses. Every so often a person (Cardboard cutout) would pop up and they would take him or her down with the guns, much like you see on a standard training program.

However everyone of the cardboard cutouts used in this training exercise had the cross painted over their heads in RED ink.

Food for thought .....

niceguyrichy

many schools here don't have any winners or losers when it comes to sports, don't keep score in football etc

because we don't want our little darlings to feel like losers, or god forbid, strive toward self improvment now.
do we?

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Falstaff

The pendulum will of course eventually swing the other way again and we shall all go back to calling things what they are...LOL

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pr0digal jenius

red crosses were the symbol in which the army's of Judea conquered during the crusades......kinda eerie.

Also of note, is Coca Cola pulling their Santa Clause christmas campaign, as it offends muslims. They still have the bears, but santa seems to have been replaced by other animals, such as penguins.


Happy Holidays my ass...nobody bitches about saint patrick's day, which is a CATHOLIC holiday, not an irish holiday(allan can probably better explain that then me, but there is, or atleast was, 2 factions, being the protestant('orange') irish, and the catholic irish....you get the idea)

Zardon

A subject for another thread but yes happy holidays my ass. I dont see how a fat dude with a white beard in a red suit giving kids presents is offensive. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for kids of all religions.

Sandok

You know, these muslims are making havok. I'm far from racist but I mean, in India, we hindus have Xmas too now and SANTA is being sold (calender thingy and all) but nobody moans about it? We hindus and the seehks take it and don't really care.

It doesn't offend the 3rd largest religion in the world so why are the number 2 offended?

pr0digal jenius

actually, they are the number 1, comprising roughly 1/4 of the global population at 1.4 billion followers



I do wonder though, what else offends these people who want crosses, pledges of allegiance, and santa clause banned/removed? They are clearly to tightly wound up and take everythign way too personally.

Sandok

Ya I find it a pity. We as indians just don't care but muslims really do and I guess it just comes down to the fundemantal teachings of your religion.

Oh well.... Humanity must stop fretting over such insignifant things!!!