frames

brc64 · Apr 9, 2003, 12:40 AM

I've been debating with a friend of mine for a while now over his use of frames in every site he's ever made. All of his sites follow the same format... a small vertical frame on the left side for navigation, content on the right.

Now, in my opinion, frames are fairly useless and make most sites look "cheap". But what does my opinion matter?

You're a bunch of crazy web design people... what is your opinion on the matter? Frames or no frames?

- Me

Asmoday · Apr 9, 2003, 01:02 AM

I like it better without frames....

ToshiroOC · Apr 9, 2003, 01:24 AM

Frames are the devil, <div> tags and tables are your friend...

Jeff · Apr 9, 2003, 01:59 AM

There are few places frames are useful, when used in those places they are really good... (I can't think of many good places right now) other than that, they suck, don't use them.

Matth · Apr 9, 2003, 04:35 PM

The advantage of frames, as it sounds like they are being used....

1. Keep just ONE copy of the navigation, and not have to update it in each page.
2. Not refreshing the unchanged navigation for every page load (though you may WANT to add a highlight, button down or something)

Disadvantages:
1. Bookmarking
2. Search engines
3. browsers that don't handle frames well (is if that's going to be much)

Alternatives?

1. Embedding an IFRAME - though less well supported than FRAMES, it keeps the page bookmarkable
2. Using some form of auto-composer to paste in navigation to each page
3. Using a Java or Flash applet for navigation

If using frames, be sure to provide relevant conten in "NOFRAMES" - you'd be amazed how often the search engines have the synopsis as "This page uses frames, but your browser doesn't support them".
If the pages make sense without frames, provide a non-frame linkage in the "NOFRAMES" part of yopur frame layout.

And by the same token, if you insist on using FLASH, JAVA, Javascript or other technologies, either make the page work without them, or provide a usable No-whatever link - before using fancy technologies, ask "does this NEED them" - and if it does need them, use the RIGHT technology.

Malus · Apr 11, 2003, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Matth

1. Keep just ONE copy of the navigation, and not have to update it in each page.
2. Not refreshing the unchanged navigation for every page load (though you may WANT to add a highlight, button down or something)

Just use PHP to make a templating system. You'll have the same navigation on every page then.

Personally, I hate frames. Long live <div> and <table>.

UberLord · Apr 27, 2003, 03:47 PM

You can simulate the frame effect using the position: absolute CSS style and adding an autoscroll to it, Except it don't work under IE unless you specify the exact size of the DIV.

Jeff · Apr 27, 2003, 10:00 PM

Hopefully the next version of IE will support max-height and min-height properly.

UberLord · Apr 28, 2003, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cyborg
Hopefully the next version of IE will support max-height and min-height properly.

Hopefully it might support PNG alpha channel as well - or is this just a pipe dream?

neilm · Apr 30, 2003, 10:24 PM

I voted no cause I hate frames to be honest. There isn't anything worse than having a lot of scroll bars in one screen.. but yea, they can sorta look nice if done properly, but even then I still don't like it.

Gkow Worm · Apr 30, 2003, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brc64
I've been debating with a friend of mine for a while now over his use of frames in every site he's ever made. All of his sites follow the same format... a small vertical frame on the left side for navigation, content on the right.

Now, in my opinion, frames are fairly useless and make most sites look "cheap". But what does my opinion matter?

You're a bunch of crazy web design people... what is your opinion on the matter? Frames or no frames?

- Me

I'd agree with that

WyreTheWolf · May 6, 2003, 02:16 PM

LONG LIVE PHOENIX BROWSER! Am I correct in assuming that Phoenix is a Gecko engine browser? It is part of the Mozilla development site.... what are the major differences between Phoenix, and Mozilla. IE randomly crashes on me... Phoenix crashed once while running a java proggy... but only that once. and I agree with the general population ... Frames are of SATAN!!!!! They all must die!

UberLord · May 6, 2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WyreTheWolf
LONG LIVE PHOENIX BROWSER!

It's been renamed to FireBird due to prior trademarks for Phoenix

Quote:

Am I correct in assuming that Phoenix is a Gecko engine browser?

Yes

Quote:

It is part of the Mozilla development site.... what are the major differences between Phoenix, and Mozilla.

Phoenix/Firebird is a browser only
Mozilla is the browser/mail/news/chat/html composer swiss army knife

Mozilla will be using FireBird for their default browser soon and seperating the mail/news into something called Thunderbird

WyreTheWolf · May 6, 2003, 03:00 PM

Thanks for the info Uber... I just went to download the newest nightly build.. and now have a nifty "Mozilla Firebird" tag on the top of the browser.

EmXtrix · Jul 15, 2003, 05:59 AM

Frames are good for beginners, but I think dHTML, JavaScript, and the rest can get the job done more efficiently

Apr 9, 2003, 12:40 AM	#1
brc64 Zeeky H. Bomb Join Date: May 2002 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 826 Rep Power: 0	frames I've been debating with a friend of mine for a while now over his use of frames in every site he's ever made. All of his sites follow the same format... a small vertical frame on the left side for navigation, content on the right. Now, in my opinion, frames are fairly useless and make most sites look "cheap". But what does my opinion matter? You're a bunch of crazy web design people... what is your opinion on the matter? Frames or no frames? - Me

Apr 9, 2003, 01:02 AM	#2
Asmoday Demonic Join Date: May 2002 Location: In the cold, dark north... Posts: 5,198 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	I like it better without frames.... __________________ How You can help Hardwareheaven by using Digg

Apr 9, 2003, 01:24 AM	#3
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	Frames are the devil, <div> tags and tables are your friend... __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Apr 9, 2003, 01:59 AM	#4
Jeff Yarr... I be blind! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 3,191 Rep Power: 80	There are few places frames are useful, when used in those places they are really good... (I can't think of many good places right now) other than that, they suck, don't use them. __________________

Apr 27, 2003, 03:47 PM	#7
UberLord A Legend in Underwear Join Date: May 2002 Location: Unknown Posts: 5,255 Rep Power: 0	You can simulate the frame effect using the position: absolute CSS style and adding an autoscroll to it, Except it don't work under IE unless you specify the exact size of the DIV. __________________ Gentoo Linux - Developer (baselayout) Read my blog "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts

Apr 9, 2003, 04:35 PM	#5
Matth Flash Banner Hater Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 3,426 Rep Power: 93 System Specs	The advantage of frames, as it sounds like they are being used.... 1. Keep just ONE copy of the navigation, and not have to update it in each page. 2. Not refreshing the unchanged navigation for every page load (though you may WANT to add a highlight, button down or something) Disadvantages: 1. Bookmarking 2. Search engines 3. browsers that don't handle frames well (is if that's going to be much) Alternatives? 1. Embedding an IFRAME - though less well supported than FRAMES, it keeps the page bookmarkable 2. Using some form of auto-composer to paste in navigation to each page 3. Using a Java or Flash applet for navigation If using frames, be sure to provide relevant conten in "NOFRAMES" - you'd be amazed how often the search engines have the synopsis as "This page uses frames, but your browser doesn't support them". If the pages make sense without frames, provide a non-frame linkage in the "NOFRAMES" part of yopur frame layout. And by the same token, if you insist on using FLASH, JAVA, Javascript or other technologies, either make the page work without them, or provide a usable No-whatever link - before using fancy technologies, ask "does this NEED them" - and if it does need them, use the RIGHT technology.

Apr 27, 2003, 10:00 PM	#8
Jeff Yarr... I be blind! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 3,191 Rep Power: 80	Hopefully the next version of IE will support max-height and min-height properly. __________________

Apr 30, 2003, 10:24 PM	#10
neilm DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: n.ireland Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0	I voted no cause I hate frames to be honest. There isn't anything worse than having a lot of scroll bars in one screen.. but yea, they can sorta look nice if done properly, but even then I still don't like it.

May 6, 2003, 02:16 PM	#12
WyreTheWolf Wolfish Bastard Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cave; Ozark Mountains Posts: 2,110 Rep Power: 0	LONG LIVE PHOENIX BROWSER! Am I correct in assuming that Phoenix is a Gecko engine browser? It is part of the Mozilla development site.... what are the major differences between Phoenix, and Mozilla. IE randomly crashes on me... Phoenix crashed once while running a java proggy... but only that once. and I agree with the general population ... Frames are of SATAN!!!!! They all must die!

May 6, 2003, 03:00 PM	#14
WyreTheWolf Wolfish Bastard Join Date: May 2002 Location: Cave; Ozark Mountains Posts: 2,110 Rep Power: 0	Thanks for the info Uber... I just went to download the newest nightly build.. and now have a nifty "Mozilla Firebird" tag on the top of the browser.

Jul 15, 2003, 05:59 AM	#15
EmXtrix DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16 Rep Power: 0	Frames are good for beginners, but I think dHTML, JavaScript, and the rest can get the job done more efficiently __________________ PCsynapse.com - Articles, Reviews, Discussions (Newly Revamped!) "When the sky looks like crap, that's when you know it's time for God to change his graphics card"