douche

I have tried nearly all 3538 releases (except j & l, i believe), and they ALL just make a scratchy noise when i play it in Vienna 2.3. I think 3537 also has problems playing it in Vienna, too. It's suppose to sound like a high sine/triangle bell tone. That's how i hear with CL drivers or in Viena. Any idea what's wrong? Unfortunately, the forum won't let me upload it, since it's bigger than 1 byte. Guess i'll have to e-mail or PM it to the project devs....

Maddogg6

I think kX handles interpolating a sample pitch differently than CL - as I found that using a single wave sample that is like C0 - and trying to play a C4 - its heavily distorted - I found one that works called vintage synths - and it has many of the same single wave samples but sampled higher and interpolated pitch is less damaging to the patch...

I heard about this a long time ago.... so I think its been reported...

A work around is yo use SFz - it is a VST(i) and should play those patches correctly, unfortunately, editing the SF2 file will have to be done blindly (or deafened) so to speak... erm, literally, ermmm what ever.. vienna wont use a VST(i) to audition patches.
So SynthFont/Viena might be more appropriate to it (I think thats possible with viena - I never tried it)

douche

I'm pretty sure my problem is NOT what you described. If only i could upload the file here. I mean, it's just 526 bytes(4 KB). Why doesn't the forum allow> 1 byte files. 1 byte is not even a blinking cursor, c'mon it's 2008 already! I uploaded the file here: RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting so someone can hear it.

Maddogg6

Perhaps a sample in MP3 for of what it is supposed to sound like (recorded with CL drivers)

Somethings I can see... (not sure if its *the* problem)
1) There exists a single sample at the beginning that is high, then 3-4 samples at 0 *then* a sine wave. and will cause a 'pop' or a glitch sounding short bass drum ...

2) 20 samples in length - (also, its not loop enabled), so, very low keys sound like a bass drum - high keys it sounds like a sharp tick sound - which tells me it was sampled at a very low root key, and all pitch shifting interpolation is like +5 octaves to middle C4 (C0 to C4 = 5 octaves).

I am pretty sure it is.

Play keys at lowest octave - at that range it sounds like the sample waveform looks to me. But, an mp3 of how it is supposed to sound - with notations of what note octave is played in the MP3 will be much easier for others to understand what you are talking about.

octave

1. Maybe try Settings / Driver compatibility / Interpolate SRC
I stumbled upon this here: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/soundfon...-pitching.html
2. The file is broken. Shows as empty everywhere but in the single-n Viena SynthFont home page.

douche

Unfortunately, i can't do that right now, but you can hear how it should sound in VIENA with Kx drivers.

I don't understand you here. What does "3-4 samples at 0 mean"? Are you talking about harmonics? Why doesn't VIENA(with Kx drivers, too...) have a problem playing it?

So, Kx drivers can't play short(20) sample length samples in Vienna 2.3? The sample is called "E 6" doesn't that mean it was sampled at that note?

That does nothing.

What do mean by "single-n"?

Russ

I think Maddogg6 made a good point about the fact that it is not enabled for looping. The sample is only like 33 samples long = @0.0006875 seconds of audio (without any looping).

Try the following:
Load the SF2 in Vienna. Choose "Loop..." from the context menu for "X 1 E6" (in the Instrument Pool). Check the box that says "Enabling looping for this sample" and under Loop Settings, set Local Loop End = 36 (click the down arrow once (manual entry does not seem to take)), Local Loop Start = 4 and then click Close.

Now see what it sounds like...

BTW: The file sounds basically the same to me in Viena and Vienna (unmodified). Also note that the loop settings in Vienna seem a little screwy to me (although I do not do much SF2 editing so maybe it is just me, or maybe it has something to do with kX, I do not know).

Maddogg6

yeah, 33 is reported, but counting the actual used samples - is ~20 (edit: and is reported in vienna 'local sample end : 20')

If you exapnd the loop editor - normally I can use the spinners to edit loop points - the file the OP posted seems corrupt - or at least - its not Vienna 2.3 friendly... ?? maybe edits in Viena screws up the SF2 file some how??

Russ

Yeah, I was just giving a time value based on a 48 kHz sample rate (20 samples at 29 kHz is 33 samples at 48 kHz). The main point was that it is very short (as you pointed out), even shorter than the (what appears to be the minimum (0.001 seconds) in Vienna) attack time.

octave

By 'single-n' (sorry for being so down-to-the-point, I was busy) I meant the app from the link I had given: Synthfont Viena and not Creative Vienna. There is only one 'n' in its name ! It's supposedly named after some Scandinavian land The SF2 file didn't show any instruments in the other programs I normally use. Very strange, certainly. Particularly considering that it works in Creative Vienna for you, Maddogg6 and Russ.

The option I had suggested does help with the square wave test case from the thread which I linked. I guess some similarity of this and the other problem is 'shallow', as is my current understanding of what are you talking about guys Cheers!

Russ

The SF2 file does not contain any presets, which is probably what your other programs are looking for.

octave

Yes, the lack of presets explans the "emptiness" of the Soundfont in all the players. However, in Creative Vienna 2.40.60, after I open this Soundfont, I don't see anything appearing anywhere. Probably, I don't know what to look for. What should I click in there?

Maddogg6

Creative Vienna changed the way presets are described visually - Veinna 2.3 - showed it a little more how the SF2 file is, or can be, actually made - where a single sample is assigned to an instrument - these instruments can be layers or key/velocity splits... Vienna 2.4 - with no actual preset completely defined - obviously isn't showing much - and I dont see anyway to have it show what used to be what I called the 'instrument' pool in Vienna 2.3.
In Vienna 2.3 has an expanding list of all instruments, then one for all the presets (aka patches) - so, I can see that only an instrument is assigned in the OP's SF2 file - but no patch is assigned to use that instrument as a key or velocity range.

Russ

I have version 2.3 as well... I do not remember much about version 2.4, except that I tried it and did not like it for one reason or another, and went back to 2.3.

douche

AFAIK, it IS enabled for looping. But, I don't know if it actually looped, though. Could it be the loop is TOO short for Kx drivers to detect?

Sounds like a saw/pulse wave to me, now. That's strange how the arrows show 36, while the Local Loop End is 20, according to Vienna....

Not so, for me. In Viena, i clearly hear a sine wave-like tone, while in Vienna i hear clicking or ticking (i.e. noise). I recall, when i had CL drivers, that it sounded like a sine tone, too.

Well, i never edited the file with Viena, in the first place. I only played it there.

Maddogg6

hmm - why was this not possible?

well, if I can adjust loops in other SF2 files - but not this one... Russ said it sounds the same in Viena too...
We just peeing in the wind at this point... its a corrupt file as far as I can tell.
There is definitly no preset configured, 3 different versions of Vienna show no patch defined - 2 show only an instrument is defined... both cases collaborate that what is seen is how it sounds.

Perhaps its a side effect from some kind of copy (or more precisely - edit) protection?? but I am not aware of any such things...

Russ

How are you playing it in Viena? Are you doing it the same way as in Vienna (i.e. going into the Instrument Pool and using the virtual keyboard to play it), or are you selecting the sample (under Audio Samples) and clicking the 'Play' button (with the 'Play Looped' option enabled)? I am guessing you are clicking the 'Play' button, which is NOT the same thing. Also note that Viena does not use the hardware synth of the card, it just plays its audio as wave audio, so the fact the you are using it with the kX driver is irrelevant.

It seems that global loop points in Vienna are ignored, unless you check the box that says "Enable Looping for this sample", and it shows that it is not enabled in your file. Also, it seems that Vienna needs a 6 sample buffer from the start and end of the sample when creating loop points, and there seems to be a minimum loop size of 32 samples (I am not sure if this is just a Vienna thing or what, but that is what the spinners seem to be trying to enforce (although not very well)). I think that is the problem with your sample (aside from the fact that it is too short to use without looping (for your purposes) and that it does not have looping enabled), it is not long enough to do looping correctly. It should probably be a minimum length of 32 + 6 + 6 samples, plus whatever extra is needed so that the start and end of the loop can mesh together as smoothly as possible (and such that it maintains the correct frequency (i.e. contains at least one full period of the waveform... with no points within the buffer zones, etc)).

BTW: All of the above seems to be Vienna requirements (or maybe part of some spec), and is not related to using kX.

Maddogg6

Play with the root key setting (shows 60 for me)
edit: but its definitly screwy on my end... /edit

more edit:
A SF2 I have had for sometime, and has a bunch basic wave forms in it - the shortest sample for Sine wave is 60 samples - its actually 2& 1/2 periods - but only one period is looped. And it has about 6 null samples at the beginning (attack work around).

Russ

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean (as far a creating loops goes)...

I am speaking mainly about some rules that Vienna appears to be trying to enforce regarding creating loops.... and I think those 6 null samples are probably for the loop workaround (too?).

i.e.
Try to redo the loop points for that sample (your 60 sample sine wave). Click the down arrow for the start point until it will go no lower. Then click the down arrow for the end point until it will go no lower. Then click the up arrow for the end point until it will go no higher. I think that you will find that the start point will not go below 6, the end point will not go lower than 32 more than the start point (i.e. 38 with start point of 6), and that the end point will not go any higher than 6 below the end (i.e. 54 for a sample with a length of 60 samples). I take that behavior to mean that the looped area would have to be somewhere between 6 and 54 (i.e. 6 sample buffer zone at either end) and be no shorter than 32 samples. This seems to be consistent behavior with any samples that are of a minimum length (once you get past some sometimes buggy starting values) and thus appears to be some rule.

Maddogg6

On the OPs SF2 - if I change the root key - the strange behaviour of his SF2 will change... but yes - it seems a min of 32 samples are always required.
Tho, I cant *change* any loop points in the OPs sf2 until I change the root key param, I can then have it loop the entire sample 33 to 0, but its sounds distorted.
When I try to change otherwise, like starting the loop earlier, still doesnt take. until I change the root key, then I can change the start and end to the whole sample.
its the first time I seen such behavior.

Russ

OK, I understand, and I think that is because the sample is not of the necessary minimum length (so it is giving odd results).

douche

There's NO need. I recall with CL drivers it sounds the same as in Viena.



It may be corrupt, but NOT having a preset just means it won't work in Vienna 2.4

I seriously doubt this, too.

Yes.

Then how does CL drivers & Viena able to bypass limitations of Vienna 2.3? What do you mean Viena plays via 'wave audio.' I know, with NO sound card drivers, it tells me "Could not open wave out device."

Maddogg6

no, not having a preset means it is not a complete SF2 spec file. So it does not conform to SF2 2.01 spec - It wont play with SFz either.
With CL and kX - it could be played via the 'hardware synth' like Vienna wil use (you assign a 'sound font compatible device') - or in a VST like sample player - like Viena/Synthfont and SFz is - and does not rely on a soundfont compatible device - as its purpose is to emulate a soundfont compatible device with a 'wave' device instead (or an ASIO device which is a high speed wave device basically).
Note: 'Wave device' refers to how windows calls a typical 'sound devices' like mobo sound - and is opposed to 'midi' devices - or 'soundfont compatible devices'

Russ

Well (again) it plays the same for me in Viena (BETA 0.610) and Vienna (2.3), it basically just sounds like pitched clicks in both, unless I enabling looping, so if it sounds different for you, then I can only assume that you have made some changes to the file since uploading it (or you are enabling some program option that I am not aware of).

The fact that Viena uses wave audio means that it is basically a soft-synth. It does not use any of the MIDI capabilities of the sound card and thus would work on any sound card that can play wave files.

Here is some info straight from the SoundFont 2.01 Technical Specification:
[COLOR=Gray]So I was close, it is an 8 sample buffer zone at each end instead of 6, giving a minimim sample length of 8 + 32 + 8 = 48 samples.[/COLOR]

So there you go, your soundfont is not in accordance with the specification...

BTW: I think your recollection regarding the CL driver is wrong, simply because of the fact that looping is not enabled. I do not picture the CL driver ignoring that fact, and deciding to play it looped anyway. However, if looping was enabled, it is possible that the CL driver is more forgiving and may have played it the way you wanted it to (with the currently defined global loop points (which do work in Viena, once looping is enabled)), while kX might not. In any case, if you stick with the specification, I do not think you should have such problems (beyond any known issues with kX).

Russ

Try this: RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

I extended your sample so that it meets the minimum length, and enabled looping, etc. See if that sounds the way you want it to.