Sugestion

lucioblues · Aug 24, 2003, 02:34 AM

I have an idea that could solve the Cubase SX issue when working with soundfonts. SX doesnÂ´t manage properly it. Vst instruments (like HAlion) makes this work better, but they manage SF's via software, doesnÂ´t using the SBlive/Audigy hardware to load them. My sugestion is to create an "Kx Vsti" to do that (I know that thereÂ´s already an Vsti in Kx but for other purposes). It could be the interface between Kx and Cubase SX, to make it able to see the soundfonts loaded in Kx in the "Inpector" and to change instruments via "program" box. It could be used for Sonar and Logic too, since they are able to work with Vsti. I know that is a lot if work to create this but it could improve kx options a lot.

Cheers

LÃºcio

dungle · Aug 24, 2003, 11:14 AM

A VSTi Soundfont loader is a great idea and would solve a lot of problems.
Why rely on the software host when they clearly don't care (about sf's)?
VSTi's are a good approach because the data settings get associated (stored) with the song that they are used in.
I think that the Kx DSP and automation would benefit if a VSTi interface was available for them also. It allows for easy management of song specific settups.
Anyhow, I hope a VSTi SF loader is deployed.
cheers

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Aug 25, 2003, 12:13 AM

yep, a good idea!
I'll investigate the possible ways of implementing it soon

any particular requests / features?

[RFC]
this VSTi should, probably, be separated from the Automation stuff (that is, a separate VSTi)
it should represent a kX Synth / Synth2 device and have an 'Edit' button -> which would open a SoundFont management window

the list of instruments for such a VSTi will correspond to the SoundFonts uploaded
the configuration of the SoundFonts will be saved automatically with the project

/E

Daniel Drummond · Aug 25, 2003, 02:17 AM

"any particular requests / features"... Well, I know this is asking too much, but if it had a soundfont editor included and could handle any size soundfonts... you know.... hehehe And we had to be able to open soudnfonts from inside the VSTi (without having to access KX mixer)....

lucioblues · Aug 25, 2003, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eugene Gavrilov

any particular requests / features?

No, your description looks perfect for it.

cheers

LÃºcio

dungle · Aug 25, 2003, 09:54 AM

Eugene,
A reliable SF loader for VSTi that works with KX would be a huge step foward!
What you outline sounds good.
I have some ideas on the detail:
I imagine that the basic idea would be to select SF filename/path that
gets loaded into a chosen bank. If we look at Cubase SX, It seems to only play bank 0.
This suggests the need for the loader to extract presets from different SF files and load them into different presets in bank 0.
(Someone let me know if I'm mistaken). Then the user would simply use patch selector
on midi tracks (with kx synth 1/2 as output port) to choose particular instrument
from the range of loaded presets. The user could have the VSTi window open to see
clearly what patch numbers mean.

(*) An alternative which is probably neater would be to have an instance of VSTi open
on each SF midi track. This way the object inpector would display the actual preset name.
Midi data on the track would be forwarded to the KX SF device selected in the VSTi window.

The following is based on real experiments/verification.
[adv. idea]
An advanced way of using SF's which I will outline here, could be an option for further
development in the future (perhaps "advanced soundfont VSTi").
The idea allows for the user to create "performance preset" with minimum of effort a
variety of concurrent "layers" simply using SF presets and published midi parameters.
Typically, each layer consists of:
1. general midi preset instrument (can be thought of as an "oscillator" or partial).
2. A keyboard zone (with velocity taper)
3. Published midi parameters become "oscillator" settings (vol,pan,cuttoff,reso,attack,decay,
chorus,reverb,mod,bend)
Each "layer" is implemented internally as separate midi channel on one of the kxsynths.
To the user a "performance preset" is simply an instrument on a virtual midi port.
From direct experience I can say that even 4 layers (Using a good GM SF array as an
"oscillator" library) the results are amazingly detailed, rich and easy to manipulate.
The concept can even be taken further by adding extra event processing on a per "layer"
basis: e.g. polyphony limiting, mod/bend/sustain recieve enable, etc.
[end adv.idea]
Eugene, If you are interested, I can mail you source/exe of a Delphi application that I
developed that does nearly all I have outlined using MME midi data manipulation.
It may provide inspiration/ideas of features to include in a VSTi soundfont plugin in the future.
The main advantages over building dedicated SF's that contain complex layers are:-
1. Easy
2. Realtime (build sounds while playing/sequencing, no worries!)
3. Modulation (as all settings are published midi paramters they can be modulated easily).
4. Velocity crossfade keyboard zones are great!

Anyhow, the basic idea (*) is probably of interest to most users concerned with the need for proper
SF loading.
best regards

alberto · Sep 10, 2003, 04:23 AM

kx-vsti to manage soundfonts is a great idea!
Compatibility soundfonts 2.1 (like aps) would be fantastic for a better expression through the use of "modulator properties" in Vienna.

BiCho · Sep 10, 2003, 03:45 PM

i know it would be easy to show all of the realtime parameters in the VSTi panel, you could even add a MIDI learn feature to it so you can really use it as a performance instrument!!

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Sep 10, 2003, 11:52 PM

bad news

the VSTi2 interface doesn't allow the instrument to populate the list of programs on-the-fly
that is, the interface requires the VSTi instrument to specify the number of programs on start-up

this, theoretically, won't allow you to choose the programs even if custom soundfont-aware VSTi is written

(if I mis-read the specification, please let me know)

there's a possible workaround: the kX VSTi will provide, say, 5 or 10 slots that can be configured via custom 'Edit' panel (thus, allowing to upload soundfonts and 'associate' these 5-10 slots with any instrument you like). these slots will be available for selection via Cubase's 'Program' selection listbox. it is currently unclear whether Cubase will allow the VSTi plugin to update the slot names on the fly... but these slots can be easily renamed by user

>> If we look at Cubase SX, It seems to only play bank 0

recent kX versions allow you to choose bank selection method
so, make sure CubaseSX and kX settings are the same (LSB only, LSB/MSB, MSB only etc...)

/E

lucioblues · Sep 11, 2003, 08:27 PM

An option could be make it work like Megafont. You previously create an "instrument definition" file for each soundfont to be used, with Bank number, programs/instruments included and file location fo the soundfont, for example. This "instrument definition" files then will be readed and loaded with the start-up of the VSTi. Then, I think, you could be able to choose them via Cubase inspector and, maybe, load the related soundfont to the memory via Vsti.

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Sep 12, 2003, 03:34 PM

I doubt this would be convenient... starting/restarting cubase just to switch soundfonts....
well, if we don't find any better solution and if CubaseSX 2 is still bad dealing with soundfonts...

/Eugene

dungle · Sep 13, 2003, 03:08 AM

A VSTi soundfont loader would provide functionality to *any* VST host (I happen to prefer SX).
If the loader has the ability to layer and combine instruments for performance then it would actually be unique and extremely useful!

Aug 24, 2003, 02:34 AM	#1
lucioblues DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 81 Rep Power: 0	Sugestion I have an idea that could solve the Cubase SX issue when working with soundfonts. SX doesnÂ´t manage properly it. Vst instruments (like HAlion) makes this work better, but they manage SF's via software, doesnÂ´t using the SBlive/Audigy hardware to load them. My sugestion is to create an "Kx Vsti" to do that (I know that thereÂ´s already an Vsti in Kx but for other purposes). It could be the interface between Kx and Cubase SX, to make it able to see the soundfonts loaded in Kx in the "Inpector" and to change instruments via "program" box. It could be used for Sonar and Logic too, since they are able to work with Vsti. I know that is a lot if work to create this but it could improve kx options a lot. Cheers LÃºcio

Aug 25, 2003, 02:17 AM	#4
Daniel Drummond DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 1,137 Rep Power: 0	"any particular requests / features"... Well, I know this is asking too much, but if it had a soundfont editor included and could handle any size soundfonts... you know.... hehehe And we had to be able to open soudnfonts from inside the VSTi (without having to access KX mixer).... __________________ www.palcomp3.com.br/ed

Sep 10, 2003, 03:45 PM	#8
BiCho Audiotecna- Representante Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Bogota, Colombia Posts: 173 Rep Power: 0	i know it would be easy to show all of the realtime parameters in the VSTi panel, you could even add a MIDI learn feature to it so you can really use it as a performance instrument!! __________________ Audiotecna - Innovación Musical Distribuidora oficial de Ortofon DJ, Native Instruments and Moog Music para Colombia (1)8073934

Aug 24, 2003, 11:14 AM	#2
dungle DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 120 Rep Power: 0	A VSTi Soundfont loader is a great idea and would solve a lot of problems. Why rely on the software host when they clearly don't care (about sf's)? VSTi's are a good approach because the data settings get associated (stored) with the song that they are used in. I think that the Kx DSP and automation would benefit if a VSTi interface was available for them also. It allows for easy management of song specific settups. Anyhow, I hope a VSTi SF loader is deployed. cheers

Aug 25, 2003, 12:13 AM	#3
Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,119 Rep Power: 75	yep, a good idea! I'll investigate the possible ways of implementing it soon any particular requests / features? [RFC] this VSTi should, probably, be separated from the Automation stuff (that is, a separate VSTi) it should represent a kX Synth / Synth2 device and have an 'Edit' button -> which would open a SoundFont management window the list of instruments for such a VSTi will correspond to the SoundFonts uploaded the configuration of the SoundFonts will be saved automatically with the project /E

Aug 25, 2003, 09:54 AM	#6
dungle DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 120 Rep Power: 0	Eugene, A reliable SF loader for VSTi that works with KX would be a huge step foward! What you outline sounds good. I have some ideas on the detail: I imagine that the basic idea would be to select SF filename/path that gets loaded into a chosen bank. If we look at Cubase SX, It seems to only play bank 0. This suggests the need for the loader to extract presets from different SF files and load them into different presets in bank 0. (Someone let me know if I'm mistaken). Then the user would simply use patch selector on midi tracks (with kx synth 1/2 as output port) to choose particular instrument from the range of loaded presets. The user could have the VSTi window open to see clearly what patch numbers mean. () An alternative which is probably neater would be to have an instance of VSTi open on each SF midi track. This way the object inpector would display the actual preset name. Midi data on the track would be forwarded to the KX SF device selected in the VSTi window. The following is based on real experiments/verification. [adv. idea] An advanced way of using SF's which I will outline here, could be an option for further development in the future (perhaps "advanced soundfont VSTi"). The idea allows for the user to create "performance preset" with minimum of effort a variety of concurrent "layers" simply using SF presets and published midi parameters. Typically, each layer consists of: 1. general midi preset instrument (can be thought of as an "oscillator" or partial). 2. A keyboard zone (with velocity taper) 3. Published midi parameters become "oscillator" settings (vol,pan,cuttoff,reso,attack,decay, chorus,reverb,mod,bend) Each "layer" is implemented internally as separate midi channel on one of the kxsynths. To the user a "performance preset" is simply an instrument on a virtual midi port. From direct experience I can say that even 4 layers (Using a good GM SF array as an "oscillator" library) the results are amazingly detailed, rich and easy to manipulate. The concept can even be taken further by adding extra event processing on a per "layer" basis: e.g. polyphony limiting, mod/bend/sustain recieve enable, etc. [end adv.idea] Eugene, If you are interested, I can mail you source/exe of a Delphi application that I developed that does nearly all I have outlined using MME midi data manipulation. It may provide inspiration/ideas of features to include in a VSTi soundfont plugin in the future. The main advantages over building dedicated SF's that contain complex layers are:- 1. Easy 2. Realtime (build sounds while playing/sequencing, no worries!) 3. Modulation (as all settings are published midi paramters they can be modulated easily). 4. Velocity crossfade keyboard zones are great! Anyhow, the basic idea () is probably of interest to most users concerned with the need for proper SF loading. best regards

Sep 10, 2003, 04:23 AM	#7
alberto DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 17 Rep Power: 0	kx-vsti to manage soundfonts is a great idea! Compatibility soundfonts 2.1 (like aps) would be fantastic for a better expression through the use of "modulator properties" in Vienna.

Sep 10, 2003, 11:52 PM	#9
Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,119 Rep Power: 75	bad news the VSTi2 interface doesn't allow the instrument to populate the list of programs on-the-fly that is, the interface requires the VSTi instrument to specify the number of programs on start-up this, theoretically, won't allow you to choose the programs even if custom soundfont-aware VSTi is written (if I mis-read the specification, please let me know) there's a possible workaround: the kX VSTi will provide, say, 5 or 10 slots that can be configured via custom 'Edit' panel (thus, allowing to upload soundfonts and 'associate' these 5-10 slots with any instrument you like). these slots will be available for selection via Cubase's 'Program' selection listbox. it is currently unclear whether Cubase will allow the VSTi plugin to update the slot names on the fly... but these slots can be easily renamed by user >> If we look at Cubase SX, It seems to only play bank 0 recent kX versions allow you to choose bank selection method so, make sure CubaseSX and kX settings are the same (LSB only, LSB/MSB, MSB only etc...) /E

Sep 11, 2003, 08:27 PM	Thread Starter #10
lucioblues DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 81 Rep Power: 0	An option could be make it work like Megafont. You previously create an "instrument definition" file for each soundfont to be used, with Bank number, programs/instruments included and file location fo the soundfont, for example. This "instrument definition" files then will be readed and loaded with the start-up of the VSTi. Then, I think, you could be able to choose them via Cubase inspector and, maybe, load the related soundfont to the memory via Vsti.

Sep 12, 2003, 03:34 PM	#11
Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,119 Rep Power: 75	I doubt this would be convenient... starting/restarting cubase just to switch soundfonts.... well, if we don't find any better solution and if CubaseSX 2 is still bad dealing with soundfonts... /Eugene

Sep 13, 2003, 03:08 AM	#12
dungle DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 120 Rep Power: 0	A VSTi soundfont loader would provide functionality to any VST host (I happen to prefer SX). If the loader has the ability to layer and combine instruments for performance then it would actually be unique and extremely useful!