MIDI Polyphony

csiaSpam · Jul 16, 2004, 02:25 AM

WinXP - kX - Audigy Platinum 2

Just switched over from Creative drivers , but my MIDI doesn't playback multiple voices as well as it use to. It's actually really bad. When there is too much polyphony the voices just drop out and it sounds pretty gay and choppy. I'm still using the same soundfont I have always used too, but the sound of it just doesn't seem to have same quality it did before I installed these new drivers.
Are there any further configurations I must make or am I just screwed?

Lex Nahumury · Jul 18, 2004, 11:54 AM

>>When there is too much polyphony the voices just drop out and it sounds pretty gay and choppy.
It's most likely not a matter of polyphony (64 standard) but available SF memory.
Allthough you can load sf files bigger then 32Mb, kX can only play back 32mb wave data at a time.
Same as the SBlive + LiveWare did/does.
Audigy + LiveWare uses different scheme to solve that "magic" 32mb barrier.

>>... but the sound of it just doesn't seem to have same quality it did before
There's a bug in kX causing an (unwanted) attack time of 6,5 ms,
and kX does not support SF 2.1 extensions.

>>Are there any further configurations I must make.......
Unfortunatly No.
If you rely heavily on SoundFonts, either use CL drivers,
use kX with a SF 2.1 capable Vsti sampler,
or use one card with CL drivers (for sf playback) and a second card with kX for all the kX goodies.

/LeMury

TravelRec. · Jul 19, 2004, 07:07 AM

Hi!

Maybe it´s cool to add some FX to the synth sound. Load in DSP some reverb or chorus and mix it with the synth out. AFAIK CL uses also some FX to make the synths sound a bit smoother...

Greetings!

TravelRec

Lex Nahumury · Jul 19, 2004, 01:08 PM

>>AFAIK CL uses also some FX to make the synths sound a bit smoother...

I also thought about that possibility, but I have compared SF playback
(using a sine waves based test SoundFont) between CL and kX on a dual card config.
All FX off in both CL and kX;
Frequencie response was the same..! (almost flat)

The reason why sf playback sounds different (worse) on kX is because of the "attack bug".
Since most instuments, by nature, produce their sonic character during attack phase,
the impact of that bug is quite substantial.
This loss of crispyness can't be "compensated" by adding Fx.

/LeMury

csiaSpam · Jul 19, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote:

>>
If you rely heavily on SoundFonts, either use CL drivers,
use kX with a SF 2.1 capable Vsti sampler,
or use one card with CL drivers (for sf playback) and a second card with kX for all the kX goodies.

Does this mean that if I load a SoundFont through VSampler as a VSTi plug-in, then it will work better than loading the SoundFont directly onto the RAM with kX?

is there a possibility that this "attack bug" can ever be fixed in future releases of kX, or is it just bad hardware from Creative Labs and I will have to get a new card?

Lex Nahumury · Jul 19, 2004, 04:34 PM

>>Does this mean that if I load a SoundFont through VSampler as a VSTi plug-in,
>>then it will work better than loading the SoundFont directly onto the RAM with kX?

Provided that Vsampler imports sf correctly (which it mostly does), then yes.
(Apart from VSTi latency and cpu usage)

>>is there a possibility that this "attack bug" can ever be fixed in future releases of kX,..

It's not a matter of 'can it be fixed', but 'will it be fixed'.
Maybe if enough users who want this to be fixed express this on our forum,
Eugene may be willing to re-direct his efforts. I realy don't know, but it's worth a shot.

>> or is it just bad hardware from Creative Labs and I will have to get a new card?
No, the cards are fine. It's a driver/software issue.

/LeMury

HarmLammers · Jul 19, 2004, 07:22 PM

It's just a very difficult to trace bug... search this forum and you can find much more about it... I wished it was easy to fix, because then it would have been fixed...

Mystiq · Jul 24, 2004, 08:06 AM

I've got two MIDIs so far that seem to be pushing polyphony far past what my Audigy 1's capable of when using the SoundFonts for it -- and I'm using Creative's drivers. Is there ANY way to get around this? I'm using Cakewalk's Sonar to try to convert them to wave so I can then turn them into MP3 but the problem with that is making sure all tracks that I record separately are in synch with the others and this is proving to be extremely time-consuming and annoying. I've been using the default WDM driver for recording. ASIO, while lower latency, produces pops and clicks.

All I want is to hear a slight re-mix I made of an old Doom 2 track in all it's proper glory.

When will someone come out with a sound card with unlimited polyphony? Surely if they can create a video card to run Doom 3 at 60 fps they can create a DSP powerful enough to play these crazy MIDIs. With PCs getting more and more RAM and CPUs getting extremely powerful, I don't think anyone would die if a sound card's MIDI engine used some of the local computer's horsepower.

wmjordan · Aug 11, 2004, 10:43 AM

Hi there.

I am also experiencing this darn bug. The polyphony, i believe, is the same in CL as in KX driver. However, the CL driver handles the problem better.
The same MIDI, the same SFs, CL drivers plays better than KX does.

What's the 32MB problem? does it mean that the total amount of SFs we load at the same time can not / should not exceed 32MB? It is weird that I have a
SF that is 29MB, and only it is loaded, the sound still drop out during the MIDI playback. Could it have some relativity to the "Attack" problem?

I hope it very much that KX can have this problem fixed in the next version, so that i can pick my hobby up once again dealing with SF and MIDI files.

Lex Nahumury · Aug 12, 2004, 01:12 AM

>>It is weird that I have a SF that is 29MB, and only it is loaded, the sound
>>still drop out during the MIDI playback.
>> Could it have some relativity to the "Attack" problem?

I think there is some terminology mixup going on here.

1. 32mb is the soundfont sample cache (it has nothing to do with Polyphony)
It's the maximum amount of SF sample data a 10kx chip can adress for immediate playback.

2. 64 Polyhony is the number of voices (soundfont + wave/asio !!!!) kX can playback simultaniously.
(it has nothing to do with the 32mb soundfont sample cache nor the size of your SF)
Monitor your 'Analyzer' page on kx mixer to check if you run out of voices.

"Dropping notes" can be caused by exeeding one (or both) of the above mentioned.

Finaly;
Dropping notes has nothing to do with the 'Attack bug' which we currently trying to fix.
(see related threads in this section)

/LeMury

wmjordan · Aug 15, 2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeMury

1. 32mb is the soundfont sample cache (it has nothing to do with Polyphony)
It's the maximum amount of SF sample data a 10kx chip can adress for immediate playback.
2. 64 Polyhony is the number of voices (soundfont + wave/asio !!!!) kX can playback simultaniously.
(it has nothing to do with the 32mb soundfont sample cache nor the size of your SF)
Monitor your 'Analyzer' page on kx mixer to check if you run out of voices.

I used the Analyzer to monitor the thing happened when the MIDI file is played. The 29MB soundfont is a stereo piano soundfont, i.e, when one note is played, two polyphonic channel will be engaged. If the piano pedal is not released soon, then, more and more polyphonic channels will be engaged. And at last, if lots of notes are played, the 64-polyphonic channel will be filled up and there will be no more room for a new note. And then the next note after that the channels has been filled up will be probably dropped out, according to my observation.

Sometimes, the situation is a little better when playing back MIDI files with a smaller mono soundfont (a non-stereo one). 64 polyphony will be filled up frequently when playing back some orchestral styled MIDI files. However, obvious note-dropping out is not so severe, relative to the scenario mentioned above.

Lex Nahumury · Aug 15, 2004, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmjordan

I used the Analyzer to monitor the thing happened when the MIDI file is played. The 29MB soundfont is a stereo piano soundfont, i.e, when one note is played, two polyphonic channel will be engaged. If the piano pedal is not released soon, then, more and more polyphonic channels will be engaged. And at last, if lots of notes are played, the 64-polyphonic channel will be filled up and there will be no more room for a new note. And then the next note after that the channels has been filled up will be probably dropped out, according to my observation.

Sometimes, the situation is a little better when playing back MIDI files with a smaller mono soundfont (a non-stereo one). 64 polyphony will be filled up frequently when playing back some orchestral styled MIDI files. However, obvious note-dropping out is not so severe, relative to the scenario mentioned above.

Yes, that's correct. Stereo SF presets take twice as many voices of course.
So it's more likely to run out of voices in those cases.
Also bear in mind that most SF implementations (kX, CL) use some form of
'note stealing' algoritme to deal with the 64 polyphony.
(Just like any 'real' (external) synth/sampler)
Different 'note stealing' algoritmes will give diff. results of course.

To avoid note dropping I always check my midi tracks for unneccesary
overlapping notes (or sustain pedals). Especialy in chords during dense parts
note drop can occure easily since note overlap almost always occur at the firts beat. You'll be amazed how many 'decayed' sutained overlapping notes
a raw midi track or file can contain.

/LeMury

wmjordan · Aug 17, 2004, 04:18 PM

The 64-only polyphonic limit gets me feel quite sad with the Creative sound cards. Without touching other instruments, but a stereo piano only, it is quite nessecary that, sometimes, we sustain the pedal and play a long run of notes, like a wave, to obtain a briliiant effect. Oops...... the card has gotten choked after 32 notes being played. With those earlier played notes still sustaining, and must be sustaining since they are in the bass part, the root of a chord, the treble ones hardly squeeze out.

Oh, to h*ll with the stereo piano SF.... or to h*ll with the Creative soundcard. ~_~

Lex Nahumury · Aug 18, 2004, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmjordan

The 64-only polyphonic limit gets me feel quite sad with the Creative sound cards. Without touching other instruments, but a stereo piano only, it is quite nessecary that, sometimes, we sustain the pedal and play a long run of notes, like a wave, to obtain a briliiant effect. Oops...... the card has gotten choked after 32 notes being played. With those earlier played notes still sustaining, and must be sustaining since they are in the bass part, the root of a chord, the treble ones hardly squeeze out.

Oh, to h*ll with the stereo piano SF.... or to h*ll with the Creative soundcard. ~_~

I know what you mean (I'm a piano player myself), but consider this;
I own a Roland XV5050 which cost me about EUR($) 1000,-, guess what,..it's polyphony is also (only???) 64 voices!
So CL cards are not that bad for EUR($) 25,- or less...

/LeMury

Daniel Drummond · Aug 18, 2004, 05:49 AM

Hey guys, I remember Creative (in the past) offering sblive drivers which would give you 1024 voices (I guess liveware 3). What was that about? Software voices? Lies? I guess so...

Lex Nahumury · Aug 19, 2004, 01:51 AM

>>....which would give you 1024 voices.
>> What was that about? Software voices? Lies? I guess so...

Yes, it was soft(synth)ware voices.

/LeMury

wmjordan · Aug 21, 2004, 06:33 AM

1024 is great. but we only have 64 today. Sad.

Jul 16, 2004, 02:25 AM	#1
csiaSpam DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2 Rep Power: 0	MIDI Polyphony WinXP - kX - Audigy Platinum 2 Just switched over from Creative drivers , but my MIDI doesn't playback multiple voices as well as it use to. It's actually really bad. When there is too much polyphony the voices just drop out and it sounds pretty gay and choppy. I'm still using the same soundfont I have always used too, but the sound of it just doesn't seem to have same quality it did before I installed these new drivers. Are there any further configurations I must make or am I just screwed?

Jul 19, 2004, 07:07 AM	#3
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	Hi! Maybe it´s cool to add some FX to the synth sound. Load in DSP some reverb or chorus and mix it with the synth out. AFAIK CL uses also some FX to make the synths sound a bit smoother... Greetings! TravelRec __________________ Always take a look behind.

Jul 24, 2004, 08:06 AM	#8
Mystiq DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	I've got two MIDIs so far that seem to be pushing polyphony far past what my Audigy 1's capable of when using the SoundFonts for it -- and I'm using Creative's drivers. Is there ANY way to get around this? I'm using Cakewalk's Sonar to try to convert them to wave so I can then turn them into MP3 but the problem with that is making sure all tracks that I record separately are in synch with the others and this is proving to be extremely time-consuming and annoying. I've been using the default WDM driver for recording. ASIO, while lower latency, produces pops and clicks. All I want is to hear a slight re-mix I made of an old Doom 2 track in all it's proper glory. When will someone come out with a sound card with unlimited polyphony? Surely if they can create a video card to run Doom 3 at 60 fps they can create a DSP powerful enough to play these crazy MIDIs. With PCs getting more and more RAM and CPUs getting extremely powerful, I don't think anyone would die if a sound card's MIDI engine used some of the local computer's horsepower. Last edited by Mystiq; Jul 24, 2004 at 08:32 AM.

Aug 18, 2004, 05:49 AM	#15
Daniel Drummond DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 1,137 Rep Power: 0	Hey guys, I remember Creative (in the past) offering sblive drivers which would give you 1024 voices (I guess liveware 3). What was that about? Software voices? Lies? I guess so... __________________ www.palcomp3.com.br/ed

Jul 18, 2004, 11:54 AM	#2
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,932 Rep Power: 64	>>When there is too much polyphony the voices just drop out and it sounds pretty gay and choppy. It's most likely not a matter of polyphony (64 standard) but available SF memory. Allthough you can load sf files bigger then 32Mb, kX can only play back 32mb wave data at a time. Same as the SBlive + LiveWare did/does. Audigy + LiveWare uses different scheme to solve that "magic" 32mb barrier. >>... but the sound of it just doesn't seem to have same quality it did before There's a bug in kX causing an (unwanted) attack time of 6,5 ms, and kX does not support SF 2.1 extensions. >>Are there any further configurations I must make....... Unfortunatly No. If you rely heavily on SoundFonts, either use CL drivers, use kX with a SF 2.1 capable Vsti sampler, or use one card with CL drivers (for sf playback) and a second card with kX for all the kX goodies. /LeMury

Jul 19, 2004, 01:08 PM	#4
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,932 Rep Power: 64	>>AFAIK CL uses also some FX to make the synths sound a bit smoother... I also thought about that possibility, but I have compared SF playback (using a sine waves based test SoundFont) between CL and kX on a dual card config. All FX off in both CL and kX; Frequencie response was the same..! (almost flat) The reason why sf playback sounds different (worse) on kX is because of the "attack bug". Since most instuments, by nature, produce their sonic character during attack phase, the impact of that bug is quite substantial. This loss of crispyness can't be "compensated" by adding Fx. /LeMury

Jul 19, 2004, 04:34 PM	#6
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,932 Rep Power: 64	>>Does this mean that if I load a SoundFont through VSampler as a VSTi plug-in, >>then it will work better than loading the SoundFont directly onto the RAM with kX? Provided that Vsampler imports sf correctly (which it mostly does), then yes. (Apart from VSTi latency and cpu usage) >>is there a possibility that this "attack bug" can ever be fixed in future releases of kX,.. It's not a matter of 'can it be fixed', but 'will it be fixed'. Maybe if enough users who want this to be fixed express this on our forum, Eugene may be willing to re-direct his efforts. I realy don't know, but it's worth a shot. >> or is it just bad hardware from Creative Labs and I will have to get a new card? No, the cards are fine. It's a driver/software issue. /LeMury

Jul 19, 2004, 07:22 PM	#7
HarmLammers DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68 Rep Power: 0	It's just a very difficult to trace bug... search this forum and you can find much more about it... I wished it was easy to fix, because then it would have been fixed...

Aug 11, 2004, 10:43 AM	#9
wmjordan kX Driver @ China Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Five-star Country - China Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Hi there. I am also experiencing this darn bug. The polyphony, i believe, is the same in CL as in KX driver. However, the CL driver handles the problem better. The same MIDI, the same SFs, CL drivers plays better than KX does. What's the 32MB problem? does it mean that the total amount of SFs we load at the same time can not / should not exceed 32MB? It is weird that I have a SF that is 29MB, and only it is loaded, the sound still drop out during the MIDI playback. Could it have some relativity to the "Attack" problem? I hope it very much that KX can have this problem fixed in the next version, so that i can pick my hobby up once again dealing with SF and MIDI files.

Aug 12, 2004, 01:12 AM	#10
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,932 Rep Power: 64	>>It is weird that I have a SF that is 29MB, and only it is loaded, the sound >>still drop out during the MIDI playback. >> Could it have some relativity to the "Attack" problem? I think there is some terminology mixup going on here. 1. 32mb is the soundfont sample cache (it has nothing to do with Polyphony) It's the maximum amount of SF sample data a 10kx chip can adress for immediate playback. 2. 64 Polyhony is the number of voices (soundfont + wave/asio !!!!) kX can playback simultaniously. (it has nothing to do with the 32mb soundfont sample cache nor the size of your SF) Monitor your 'Analyzer' page on kx mixer to check if you run out of voices. "Dropping notes" can be caused by exeeding one (or both) of the above mentioned. Finaly; Dropping notes has nothing to do with the 'Attack bug' which we currently trying to fix. (see related threads in this section) /LeMury

Aug 17, 2004, 04:18 PM	#13
wmjordan kX Driver @ China Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Five-star Country - China Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	The 64-only polyphonic limit gets me feel quite sad with the Creative sound cards. Without touching other instruments, but a stereo piano only, it is quite nessecary that, sometimes, we sustain the pedal and play a long run of notes, like a wave, to obtain a briliiant effect. Oops...... the card has gotten choked after 32 notes being played. With those earlier played notes still sustaining, and must be sustaining since they are in the bass part, the root of a chord, the treble ones hardly squeeze out. Oh, to hll with the stereo piano SF.... or to hll with the Creative soundcard. ~_~

Aug 19, 2004, 01:51 AM	#16
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,932 Rep Power: 64	>>....which would give you 1024 voices. >> What was that about? Software voices? Lies? I guess so... Yes, it was soft(synth)ware voices. /LeMury

Aug 21, 2004, 06:33 AM	#17
wmjordan kX Driver @ China Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Five-star Country - China Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	1024 is great. but we only have 64 today. Sad.