Mikol

Hi,

I'm an SBlive (platinium 5.1) owner and a kx driver user. My main problem is that soundfont support is not cool with my soundcard. With Creative or kx drivers, I've the same problem : strange bugs. Sometimes, I play and some notes "disappear" ! They doesn't play and I have to reboot. This is perhaps due to the "memory limit" of 32Mb and polyphony limits ... Another problem is soundfont software support. I've many files and without a managing tool, this is very hard to find "the" sound. One tool allow me to play music such as all soundfonts were loaded : megafont. But this tool is not well supported with kx drivers. But with Creative drivers, very bad latency and no asio support !

Only thing that I would like is a soundcard able to load and play soundfonts without strange bugs. And other thing would be to be able to manage files easily.

Do you know which soundcard could be mine !? Is there only Creative soundcards ?

Thank.

Lex Nahumury

>>What soundcard for good soundfont support !?

Audigy 1 and 2 + CL drivers gives the best hardware SoundFont playback
at the moment under XP. It's not perfect (what is?), but it offers the most
you can get from HW-accelerated SoundFont technology;
- > 32Mb sf playback
- SF 2.1 support
- Fully compatible with Vienna

SBLive + CL drivers also work fine if you obey the '32 Mb rule'
and can live without SF 2.1 extensions.

Any 10kx based CL card + kX drivers;
- 32Mb limit,
- not fully Vienna compatible
- not compatible with most sf tools
- no SF 2.1 support
- bug in Attack/release

As for existing SF software tools;
Most of them don't work with kX or don't work under XP at all like MegaFont.

To conclude;
Either use VST samplers for SF playback, or install 2 CL cards.
One with kX drivers and the other with CL drivers for SF playback.
Hook them up via SPDIF and set kX as the "master card".
(the latter is what I use atm)

/LeMury

PS:
I'm currently writing/using a special kind of SF loader.( not to confuse with kXSFi discusses elsewere)
It loads Presets from different SF files rather then loading whole sf files into precious sf memory.
User can browse (very large) sf files, preview each Preset and load only the ones he likes,
'on the fly' while sequencer is running.
The SF Loader works as a VST plugin and saves/restores(re-loads) the "user presets" on Project load.
Only references to Presets in SFfiles are stored, so no hazzle with bank managers or copying/overwriting
existing sf files, banks, presets etc.
Patchnames are properly displayed in SX and no hazzle with virtual ports like MegaFont did.

PPS:
Oh yeah,..I forgot to mention the APS cards.
Worked fine under Win98. Also 32mb limit, but with good SF 21. support
Bad driver support under XP IIRC.

thomasabarnes

Hi LeMury:

>I'm currently writing/using a special kind of SF loader.( not to confuse with kXSFi discusses elsewere)
It loads Presets from different SF files rather then loading whole sf files into precious sf memory.
User can browse (very large) sf files, preview each Preset and load only the ones he likes,
'on the fly' while sequencer is running.
The SF Loader works as a VST plugin and saves/restores(re-loads) the "user presets" on Project load.
Only references to Presets in SFfiles are stored, so no hazzle with bank managers or copying/overwriting
existing sf files, banks, presets etc.
Patchnames are properly displayed in SX and no hazzle with virtual ports like MegaFont did.

A Special Soundfont Loader. Sounds very good! Will it only work with Cubase SX? If it's a VST it should work in any program that supports VST, shouldnt it?

Please, keep us informed?

Sincerely, thomasabarnes

__________________

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My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Lex Nahumury

>>Will it only work with Cubase SX?
Should work with any VST host that supports fxb chunk loading/saving,
but yes, it's geared towards SX.
Although it would be easier to write a standalone applet, I want a 'tight integration' in the sequencer
for quick and easy usage.
In case of Cubase, VST is the only way to integrate an add-on.
Cakewalk/Sonar offers their MFX for these purposes.

/LeMury

dungle

hi LeMury,
I'm interested in your comments regarding Audigy and CL drivers as being the best for SF support at the moment.
I have two sblive! but installing CL and kX is a real hassle as CL drivers are not well behaved during installation when two similar cards are in the machine.

People usually mention VST soft samplers when talking about SF support but I find CPU occupancy an issue as parts get added to an arrangement. Also latency for real time playing.

I see that "Audigy PCI" is now only a little more in cost than a sblive!5.1.
You mention in a previous thread that dual driver/cards installs ok because the audigy drivers dont recognize the sblive!

All this makes me think of replacing an older sblive with an Audigy. Do you know if "Audigy PCI" is the same as Audigy LS? At least as far as SF support is concerned?
Also, I assume your new SF loader VSti will work with CL drivers as well?
(btw: It's a great concept!)
cheers

Lex Nahumury

>>... installing CL and kX is a real hassle as CL drivers are not well behaved during installation when
>>two similar cards are in the machine.

Yep, that's a real pain. I can't remember exactly, but I used to "hack" the install .INF files
of the driver distro changing the PCI device numbers as reported by the pci bios to force installation.


>>People usually mention VST soft samplers when talking about SF support but I find
>>CPU occupancy an issue as parts get added to an arrangement. Also latency for real time playing.

Yep, besides that, why use CL cards for music when one of it's most unique
features (SounFonts) does not work properly.
If VST is "the answer" why bother with hardware DSP, CL cards and kX in the first place.
Might as well buy a good , simple (and better) Audio card with ASIO support.


>>You mention in a previous thread that dual driver/cards installs ok because the audigy drivers
>>dont recognize the sblive!

Actualy, my Audigy1 driver won't install/regocnize on my Audigy2 card.
Still, it depends on the driver distro an the card types since CL distributes Unified
drivers for most cards. If you download the latest SBlive XP drivers you'll find that they
will also recognize/install on an Audigy1/2.
The best bet is to install CL for the "oldest" type card, and kX for the newer.
Makes sense doesn't it?

>>Do you know if "Audigy PCI" is the same as Audigy LS? At least as far as SF support is concerned?

No, I realy don't know how and if these cards support hardware-SoundFonts.
The specs/manuals on CL sites leaves us "in the dark".
Only guarantee are user reports.

>>Also, I assume your new SF loader VSti will work with CL drivers as well?
Actualy it only works with CL drivers since kX does not support the LoadPreset() function
as specified in the SoundFont SDK.
I could try use the Vienna Extension to do the same for kX (which was the initial plan),
but the Attack bug renders the kX Synths pretty useless, so I stopped.

>>(btw: It's a great concept!)
Yeah, I'dd like to think so too. Works quite neat.
I use it together with Vienna opened while SX is running.
This way one has an editable Synth + librarian in "one" workspace.

/LeMury

dungle

thanks for the insights!
Does this mean you have SX driving synth A and vienna using synth B?
cheers

Lex Nahumury

>>Does this mean you have SX driving synth A and vienna using synth B?
No,..I simply use Synth A for both. (I only use B when I need extra midi channels. rarely)
Vienna uses bank 126 preset 0 to store its INAM.

/LeMury

dungle

well, I'd gladly alpha test something whenever its ready for this!
(I understand it takes extra work to put software into a form that others
can use ...)
cheers

Lex Nahumury

>> I'd gladly alpha test something whenever its ready for this!
Ok, I'll keep that in mind.

/LeMury

dj_stick

lemury, you seem to be quite adept at coding, perhaps euguene and yourself could work something out about perhaps you coding a sf2.1 engine for kX? that is if you have the time

__________________

Lex Nahumury

>> perhaps euguene and yourself could work something out about perhaps you
>> coding a sf2.1 engine for kX?

SoundFont implemantation is embedded in the driver code wich is not open source
and therefore solely maintained by Eugene.

Besides; Fixing the 'attack bug' is far more important then sf2.1 etc.
I already was investigating the hw registers but Eugene reported
that the problem lies elsewere.
So there's not much I or anybody else besides Eugene can do at this point.
If there is, I gladly be of any assistance of course.

/LeMury

dungle

Hopefully the great man will read this and get some motivation!
It really is a shame to be contemplating new cards and CL drivers
because of (a probably) minor bug with such significant ramifications.
Oh well, it pays to be patient.
cheers

Lex Nahumury

>>Hopefully the great man will read this and get some motivation!
>>Oh well, it pays to be patient.

Patience has it ends.
Perhaps a good idea is to put up a kind off poll or at least a thread
where people who want/need proper SF support can express this.

If it prooves to be of little interrest, changes are very small this is going to be fixed ever.
In that case I don't see any reason to pursui this issue any further!
If on the other hand there is enough interrest, we could make a valid request to Eugene.

In the end, it's up to Eugene to decide ofcourse.

One thing I do know;
Sitting back doing nothing will leave us stuck with great kX drivers but without SoundFonts,
or crippled Creative drivers with SoundFonts.
I for once, want to know what to expect so I can make my own decisions as how to (re)direct my efforts.

So what do you think?

/LeMury

Eugene Gavrilov

- 32Mb limit

(per-sample)
this is a hardware limitation, that is solved by Creative labs by introducing additional software processing, buffer management and data copying, which is quite a bad idea, especially if you have both synth & asio running

- not fully Vienna compatible
- not compatible with most sf tools

vienna api (practically undocumented) highly relies on the internal data management performed by the existing creative drivers. since our soundfont management system is very different, implementing certain vienna features would require a very complex translation layer...
on the other hand, if someone finds particular bug in soundfont implementation (based on the =public= specifications), I will definitely fix it as soon as I receive enough information.

- no SF 2.1 support

the initial sf2 implementation was done withouth sf2.1 in mind, that was, probably, wrong. thus, 'adding' such support is impossible without major code changes. this would take a lot of time, will introduce a lot of new bugs (probably).

- bug in Attack/release

there's a hardware register responsible for 'attack time'
however, after some tests, it seems the register is programmed correctly.
thus, the problem is related to some other issue.
I've already mentioned a lot of time: in order to make all the parameters as close to CL, as possible, one will need to test all of them using spying software under CL & kX.
however, there were no volunteers (since this software needs to be updated a little bit)

E.

Lex Nahumury

Ok,..lets summarize Eugene's post/answer;

- 32Mb limit
- not fully Vienna compatible
- not compatible with most sf tools
- no SF 2.1 support

So these 4 points are more or less the result of the different Soundfont Implementation used in kX.
Changing either one of them would involve major code revisions.


- bug in Attack/release
>>in order to make all the parameters as close to CL, as possible, one will need to test all of them using
>>spying software under CL & kX.

Ok, I'll pick up the spytool again and see what i can come up with.

/LeMury

Mikol

Hi,

Thank for your answers !!!!!!

I think I'm going to buy new soundcard for better soundfont support and continues with kX for my "old soundcard".

I hope LeMury's project (which could replace "buggy" megafont) would be relased as soon as possible. Good luck for your coding and thank for your great work.

dj_stick

Mikol, simply buying a cheap live! soundcard and using creative drivers for that should work fine.

also software samplers, in the VSTi or DXi format will also play sf's fine (kontakt is one that i know supports SF)

__________________

dungle

bear in mind that CL drivers for 10k1 cards (sblive!) do not support multi card which makes the installation of the CL drivers in a dual CL/kX setup a real hassle! (it is possible though)
As has been suggested, a better solution may be to have an Audigy/sblive! combination.
The CL divers will install only on the one card and of course you can select which card for the kX drivers during kX driver installation.
cheers

Mikol

Hi,

So, I'm going to try "software" solution ... with Cubase VST

What soundfont software instrument could you suggest me !? Is there free software ?

Is there software which allow to manage all available soundfonts of hard disk (such as great megafont !) ?

Thank for all your answers.

PS: LeMury, I'm interested in your new project which could be very funny, with CL drivers and not kx but funny !!!

thomasabarnes

Hi Mikol:

You can find a free soundfont player here: http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm

Sincerely, thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Lex Nahumury

Yep it is, but at the moment we are working hard to find/fix the kX attack issue.
If we succeed, I will write a 'SF Preset Loader' version for kX so we can utilize that 32mb to the fullest.

Although 'Soft SF Synths' have their advantages, nothing beats a hardware sampler
in terms of stability, fast respons and not seldom sonicly.
(not all soft synths sound good)

Besides that; The SF hardware Synth is a unique feature on our CL cards
which should work properly. Especialy for musicians!

/LeMury

Mikol

Thank thomasabarnes, this free soundfont player is very cool !

Soft synths could be solution but I'm ok with you LeMury, hard synths are more stable, no clic because of cpu overload, ...

Mikol

Hi all,

I made some software tests (with VSTi under Cubase VST 5.0) with : Halion 2 (from Cubase), Kontakt and SFZ.

My goal is to see which one could be mine.

But I didn't really found THE one ! The main function that I would like is a great collection manager. I have many many soundfonts files on my harddrive and would like software that could allow me (such as megafont was doing) to see all of them and choose in my complete collection.

Do you know where could I find such a tool ? I only need software that allow me to play and select all my soundfonts, not a software that allow me to edit samples !!!!

Thanks.

thomasabarnes

Hi Mikol:

VSampler 3 will meet your need. "VSampler supports loading of sample-formats (WAV, AIF), instruments (VS3, VSB, SF2, LM4, AKP, DLS, HALion, GigaSampler) and AKAI S-1000/S-3000 CDs as well as disc-images of Akai-CDs." Copyright (C) 2003 Speedsoft

You can use any combination of these file formats to make a Vsampler soundlibrary of your collection, this will allow you to see all (your soundfont collection) and choose from your complete collection. The VSampler soundlibrary can hold a maximum of 16,384 Instruments. Each row can hold 128 programs/patches, and there are 128 rows/banks, thus 16,384 Instruments. If that's not enough room you can create as many soundlibraries as your HD can hold.


Go to Maz's site: http://www.maz-sound.com/index.php?show=product&id=2 for more information and to download the VSampler 3 manual 'Start Up and Basics' to learn how to create your VSampler 3 soundlibrary.

Sincerely, thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Mikol

Many many thanks thomasabarnes !!!!!!!!!

VSampler seems to be THE thing that I need ! And performances are great.

Now I've two choices : buy complete version for 149$ or buy another soundcard for better soundfont support. I think I'm going for first and continue with kx Drivers which give me latency solution.

thomasabarnes

Hi Mikol:

I chose VSampler 3 over Kontakt and HALion myself.

It's my sampler of choice, I hope you like it as well.

Sincere;y, thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs