Anthonius

While I've had no problems with the Creative drivers in this department, kX seems to have issues with more than one note being played at once, especially in the same channel, such as with a drum/cymbal hit, or a snare line and a tom line intermingling. If the soundfont's notes are rather short, this won't happen, but if they linger on for a short while, like a good quality tom or cymbal, chances are the distortion will occur. The more notes played at once, the higher the chance of it occuring.

Here is a clip of the very first notes (played at once) in a song. The playback was stopped just before the second hit. Note that only the initial hit is scripted for playback in the MIDI as I recorded it, and no other notes or controllers were present.

It doesn't seem to matter what I set my buffers to, nor does it seem to matter about the synth compatibility section. There are also times when the distortion comes in the form of off-key notes, sometimes even from instruments nowhere to be found in the MIDI file.

Any suggestions as to why this is and how to fix it?

Lex Nahumury

Which kX driver version, which sequencer, how do you load the sf, what card..etc.? More info plz.

/LeMury

Anthonius

Sorry. The card is an SBLive! 5.1, and the kX driver is the latest available version (5.10.00.3537). I know that the SBLive! has a bug with soundfonts over a certain size limit, but the fact still remains that it worked properly with the Creative drivers. I loaded the soundfont using the soundfont utility in the kX Mixer, and I usually leave the settings as defaulted when loading the soundfont (eg, both synths, 0), however, it seems to make no difference if I change the settings. Also, this happened both using the standard DSP and a custom one.

As for the sequencer, it really doesn't matter. It happens in sequencers, players, anywhere a MIDI file can be played.

Some more info on the operating environment:
-Windows XP Pro
-P4 1.5GHz
-384MB PC-133MHz (I know, less than spectacular)

Lex Nahumury

Hmm,..very weird. Especialy when listening to that sound clip you posted.
It does not sound like the usual note cutoff.
More like sample memory gettting srewed up somehow.
I can not reproduce this, nor do I recall any other users reporting this wierd
phenomena.

-Does this happen with *all* soundfonts?
That is; if you would use the standard 4 or 8mb GM sf (just for testing),
does this also occure?

-Have you tried earlier/other kX driver versions?

/LeMury

Anthonius

I haven't tried other kX driver versions yet, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Also, it seems to happen only with soundfonts with larger sample sizes, such as the Unison soundfont and higher.

Download links for the soundfont and the MIDI where it's most noticeable:
Unison
Song from Rise of the Triad

Lex Nahumury

>>..it seems to happen only with soundfonts with larger sample sizes....

[color=yellow]Yep, makes sense.[/color]
[color=yellow]Ok, I'll see if I can reproduce it with your sf and mid.
[/color]
[color=yellow]/LeMury[/color]
[color=yellow]PS:[/color]
[color=yellow]The .mid file link does not work. plz fix.[/color]

Anthonius

Link's fixed. I've read that kX has a cap on the amount of sample memory playable at one time, but I doubt that a few drums at the same time would amount to that, and even so, it'd probably only drop notes like the Creative drivers do.

Lex Nahumury

It seems I have found the cause.

I could easily reproduce that weird behaviour in Vienna playing
only the Standard drum set from your Unison.sf2.
After some peeking I found out that the 'Maracas' sample was set to 'looped'
without having it's loop start/end points properly set.
Well, looping one-shot drum samples is unusual to begin with,
but the total random (not set) loop start/end points causes sf playback to go "crazy".
After removing the invalid loop in the Maracas, everything played back fine.

So, the Unison sf file is not "tidy".
There are a lot of un-tidy sf files around.
Creative's SF implementation seems to be more "forgiving" on these matters
then kX, which uses a different SF implementation.

Review your sf files in Vienna, or use tools like sfproc etc. to tidy up things.

/LeMury

EDIT:
I just played back your mid.
As I suspected, it plays fine with the original 8mb GM sf.
So the unison.sf2 needs some workover.
This is indeed not a matter of sample memory limitations
but a matter of un-tidy programmed SF files.

Anthonius

Thank you! That's certainly not something I would have thought of, but it worked. Now I know what the problem was for future reference.. Hopefully, no other portions of the font or any others of mine have this problem...

Speaking of Creative's drivers being more forgiving, I've also noticed that if a certain instrument wasn't present (such as a specific drumset), it would skip the instrument and choose the next one down the line. kX simply plays dead space.

Lex Nahumury

>>..Hopefully, no other portions of the font or any others of mine have this
>>problem...

[color=yellow]I would check them all if I were you.[/color]
[color=yellow]I'm pretty sure there are more un-tidy 'instruments/samples' in that Unison.sf2.[/color]

[color=yellow]Anyway; A soon as you start hearing such strange 'garbage' again,[/color]
[color=yellow]examine the soundfont file in Vienna.[/color]
[color=#ffff00][/color]
>>Speaking of Creative's drivers being more forgiving, I've also noticed that if
>>a certain instrument wasn't present (such as a specific drumset), it would
>>skip the instrument and choose the next one down the line. kX simply plays dead space.
[color=yellow]Hmm,.. that is a matter of preference.[/color]
[color=yellow]Personaly I prefer to hear 'dead space' if a certain Instrument isn't there were it's supposed to be. Rather then skipping "behind my back".[/color]
[color=yellow][/color]


[color=yellow]/LeMury[/color]

thomasabarnes

That Unison sondfont is free, so you can expect that it's gona have something problematic about it. There are lots of GM and other soundfonts available for free at Hammersound, some better than others, and the Unison soundfont is there, too.

I tried all the free biggest GM soundfonts at Hammersound, and I found the best sounding one to be Fluid release 2. It's 110 MB unpacked, but the instruments didnt sound balanced well.

So, I sticked with the Creative 4 MB or 8 MB GM soundfont. The instruments in there are balanced well to me. Fluid release 2 has some instruments that sound better than the Creative GM soundfonts, but I liked the overall balance of the Creative soundfonts better.

I also bought Sonic Implants 12 MB GM soundfont. Creatives sounded better, so I went and bought the upgrade to Sonic Implants 24 MB GM soundfont. That was $80 US dollars in all I spent on a GM soundfont. It turned out that the Piano on the SI 24 MB GM soundfont sounds nice, and better than the piano of the Creative soundfonts. But, in overall instrument balance, the Creative soundfonts sound better to me! So, I at least got a good Piano out of buying the SI GM soundfonts.

I thought if I bought a commercial GM soundfont, I would get a good GM sound. That wasnt the case. Now, I have Sonar 4 Producer Edition, and there is a DXi included with it called the TTS-1. It's a GM2 softsynth with Roland sounds. It sounds better than the soundfonts I have, but the seashore patch it has is weak and low in volume. It's the best thing I have for GM sounds, though.

My point in all this talk is that overall, it seems that the commercial soundfonts are the best. But, just because a soundfont is free, it doesnt necessarily mean poor quality. Some instruments of the free soundfonts are of better quality than some instruments in a commercial soundfont. I dont think there is a really good GM soundfont around. If there is, I cant find it. LOL And, I never took the time to learn how to make my own GM soundfont successfully with a program like Vienna. I read a tutorial by Ethan Winer on how to make your own soundfont banks using Vienna Soundfont Editor. I tried to do that once using the Fluid soundfont as a base, but when I replaced the piano with the piano in the SI 24 MB sf2, the darn soundfont wouldnt load. LOL I wish there was a program that makes creating your own soundfonts simple.

Anyway, let me say I had nothing to do, so thought I'd talk a little bit.

Sincerely, thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Lex Nahumury

Well, personaly I dont see any reason why one would use GM SF
unless your work *has* to be GM compatible.

They usualy sound bad, and use up precious SF memory on patches one doesnt use.
Best thing is to compile ones own sf files using only a few quality presets.
(I yet have to see/hear contemporary (pop) music using more then 10 different Instruments)
These presets can be easily "snatched" from large SF files through
Vienna's Bank manager, or other tools, without 'real' editing.

As for balanced presets;
Over the years I have compiled sf files containing only Basses,
another only EPs, another only drums etc.
That way it is easier to find/get the right balance depending on song/mix.

As for the Unison sf and others,
A few wrongly set loop points doesn't make it a bad SF.
I use the Creative/EMU standard 2,4,8 mb SFs only for test cases like this.
Other then that they sound total crap to me... .

Just my personal view of course.

/LeMury

peate

I tend to agree. I have the latest Fluid 143 mb and when I try loading it it takes almost half a minute on 512 megs of ram, while a slightly smaller sized bank, 100mb, loads almost instantly. They dont sound much better than their size would indicate either. My favorite is a 25mb GM bank I found a long time ago that was specifically designed for the SB Live. If you're interested here's the link to download it. (14 mb)

http://www.sccmusic.250x.com/sfont/genuser/download.htm

It sounds a lot better than the 8mb Creative bank, while not huge. Has a pretty good drum selection also. Best of all it's free.

Pierre

thomasabarnes

You usually have some good opinions. LOL

I'm not bothered by your opinion here LeMury.

peate: Thanks for the link.

thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Lex Nahumury

[color=yellow]Yep, and sometimes very bad ones.. .[/color]

[color=#ffff00]Nah,..seriously;[/color]
[color=#ffff00]You are right about those standard GM SFs beeing more balanced.[/color]
[color=#ffff00]They have to be, otherwise the whole GM concept wouldn't make much sense.[/color]

[color=#ffff00]However, the sound quality of those SFs is poor and they sound like a[/color]
[color=#ffff00]cheap "toy" GM sound module.[/color]

[color=#ffff00]GM is what it's name implies; General MIDI.[/color]
[color=#ffff00]Good for karaoke, music education or a tune on a web site.[/color]
[color=#ffff00]The unavoidable lack of nuance in GM makes it useless for serious music[/color]
[color=#ffff00]applications, but works perfect for it's original purpose.[/color]
[color=#ffff00]It has to be "bread and butter".[/color]
[color=#ffff00]That is also the reason why trying to make a more nuanced GM [/color][color=#ffff00]mostly fails.[/color]
[color=#ffff00][/color]

[color=#ffff00]/LeMury[/color]

Tiger M

Someone here uses GM? I've made my own soundfonts by samples I've recorded in a studio and I use sf mostly for drums and bass guitar.

__________________
Miss you, Steve...

thomasabarnes

Yeah, I agree. That's why I've been trying to find a good GM Sf2.

I use GM soundfonts for playing MIDI files for karaoke and to hear Music that's been turned into a MIDI rendition. Using MIDI files also let's me see how some music is composed. It helps when I'm trying to view how a string part is done in a song like "Boogie Wonderland" by Earth, Wind, & Fire. I know Maurice White used a real orchestra, but viewing an imatation of the playing in a MIDI files helps me.

Cya all around, and Welcome Back Tiger M.

Hey Tiger M, do you have a GM sf2 you want to share?

thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Tiger M

no, in my previous post I meant something like :"Someone here uses GM! " I 've made non-GM soundfonts for drum and bass only, not GM ones...

btw, about that Unison font you were discussing earlier: I have it and it is very good for a GM font. I've never experienced any roblems with it and the samples are good at approx. 30mb. If anyone needs GM I recommend it.

But if you're into serious GM-ing , than you should buy a big high-quality one.

__________________
Miss you, Steve...

Lex Nahumury

[color=yellow]hehehe,...I just Love these misunderstandings. .[/color]

peate

I really don't think the term General Midi has anything to do with quality. It's all in the sample size. It's more a standard used so that each instrument is where it's suppposed to be. i.e. Grand Piano is first, gunshot is last. I've seen GM banks of many gigabytes in size. One has to figure those would sound pretty good.

Making your own soundfonts is not for everyone. I tried sampling my acc. guitar once. It worked great, as long as I played back the exact same note I sampled.

I'm like Thomas, I use soundfonts mostly for listening to custom midis I downloaded or foolin' with karaoke when I need a laugh. It's good for layin' down a bass line occasionally using a software keyboard.

Pierre

Tiger M

This is of course self-understood. The fact that you have 127 instruments means that the samples are less and worse in quality to save memory. Generally single instrument fonts have a separately recorded sample for each note which makes them realistic. This is not the case with most GMs.

where have you seen those? since fonts are loaded in ram you must have seen these on some kind of A class network server or something. You maybe mean samples in wav or other format?

__________________
Miss you, Steve...

Lex Nahumury

[color=yellow]Yes, but it is also a "standard" concerning; 'Velocity->Layer->volume' etc.[/color]
[color=yellow]to keep GM playback balanced under every curcomstance.[/color]
[color=yellow]GM SFs can't have to much layers because of this, so in a sense, GM *is*[/color]
[color=yellow]affecting overall quality because of the 'lack of nuance'.[/color]
[color=#ffff00][/color]
[color=yellow]For example; No matter how big a Snare sample is, without nuance differences it[/color]
[color=yellow]will sound static, boring and fake anyhow.[/color]


[color=yellow]/LeMury[/color]

peate

I should explain that large soundbank was in another format than .sf2.
I forget what instrument it was for, but I recall it was huge. Just the Grand Piano was like 150-175 megabytes. Would be useless on a PC.

Thanks for the explanation LeMury. That explains the "cheap" sounds. I have a 25 meg Steinway Grand that I use for classical piano pieces, and it's pretty darn good, actually.

Pierre