mscrivo

Those of you having this problem, can you do me a favour and try uninstalling windows update KB952287. I found this tip in another forum and I have not had a crash yet, still too early to say it's gone for sure, but it definitely looks promising.

It's strange that and ADO/SQL related hotfix would have anything to do with this problem, but who am I to judge.

Mike

OldBuzzard

Then you didn't have TDR problems. TDR's are Vista specific. There is no provision for them in XP. The closest thing to a TDR that you would see in XP, if you are using an ATI card, is a VPU RECOVER issued by the ATI drivers.

Note my sig. I have a mix of Vista and XP in both 32 and 64 bit versions. On my system with an X1950 installed I was TDR free in every OS I have. When I installed the 3870 X2 it was "TDR Hell" in the Vista partitions, but still rock solid in the XP ones. I'm now TDR free, after using the MSCONFIG/BOOT fix in all of the Vista partitions.

It sounds more like you had a hardware incompatability issue that would have given you problems no matter what OS you installed.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Freelancer

Well the msconfig/boot fix doesn't seem to cure my problem. I've uninstalled the windows update KB952287 and see if it helps.

maxwell005

i did it as well but it did not work

maxwell005

Under vista i clearly had TDR issues. but under XP it was that VPU recoverry thing...anyway it ended up as a BSOD. So for me the symptoms was quite the same and resulted in the same kind of error as well. Anyway as you said it was an incompatibility problem i had for sure that causes these problems.

Raduque

In your case it wasn't Vista. The TDR error was a symptom of your bad ram. For others, it's not that simple. Many people have no issues whatsoever in XP, only in Vista. Others, like you, have issues no matter what OS, they only show up as TDRs in Vista.

For 90% of us, Vista is the common denominator. Microsoft made the WDDM behave in a certain way and the behavior is incorrect, so they need to fix it.

diegameL

Hello

I have had a lot of problems with my brand new Alienware Area 51 after the first day. The main thing that puzzles me is that the first day it worked perfectly. I rocked Fallout 3, Bioshock etc. without any problems. After I shut it down for the night, the next morning hell began.

I couldn't enter windows. Just a black screen. I tried system restore etc. but nothing permanent good happened. In the end I ended up formatting my hard drive in hope of making it better. This didn't do much good though. First of all, Vista couldn't find drivers for my graph card automatically at all. I don't know if this is normal because of how new the card is, however. After installing drivers it wouldn't let me to Vista. Without installing, lets in fine. Also safe mode. Well, I got a tip I should try taking the video card out and putting it back in. After this the drivers worked. However, the games still don't work properly anymore.

FEAR: let me into the game, played a little. Seemed like the performance is worse than before.

Steam/CS: Freezes computer immediately after going from menu to load the game.

Fallout 3: Sometimes menu looks ok, but starts becoming choppy and going crazy after 10 seconds, moving around etc.

WHAT brings me to this thread is the fact that I got a blue screen many times also in the middle of this, after trying the games, which is atikmdag.sys. Also when trying to load Vista. It seems completely random. Sometimes it loads it, sometimes i have to try safe mode first, then it loads. I also got page_fault_in_nonpage_area blue screen a while ago after trying to run a game.

The results for doing various methods to stop this have suggested that it is indeed Vista's or drivers' fault, because before doing this the games would not even run at all.

Disable Aero and Uninstall CCC and take only display drivers - was able to run FEAR. Before also FEAR froze after like 2mins of the beginning videos.

But what I really think is strange is that the first day everything worked PERFECTLY. Only after shutting it down after the long gaming session that night, all went wrong.

Of course, I am in touch with the tech support. I just trying to get different opinions from here.

Comments appreciated :/



--
Processor: Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q9550 2.83GHz 12MB Cache 1333MHz FSB
Processor Cooling : Alienware® Standard System Cooling
Power Supply: Alienware® 1000 Watt Multi-GPU Approved Power Supply - EU Powercord
Graphics Processor : Single Graphics Card - 2GB GDDR5 ATI® Radeon™ HD 4870 X2 – Dual GPU Technology
Memory: 4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1066MHz - 2 x 2048MB
Motherboard: Alienware® Approved NVIDIA nForce 790i Ultra SLI
Includes PCI-Express 2.0, DDR3 Memory, and Support for Intel 1600 FSB
Operating System: Genuine Windows® Vista Home Premium - English
System Drive: Single Drive Configuration - 250GB SATA 3Gb/s 7200 RPM
Primary CD ROM/DVD ROM : 20X Dual Layer DVD±RW/CD-RW Writer
Sound Hardware: Integrated 7.1 High-Definition Audio

CATALYSTCATCHER

I think I can safely say that sometimes TDR problems could be triggered by a harware problem and sometimes it is impossible to tell there is a HW problem so it appears that drivers are bad.

I do know that bad hardware will definately cause drivers to crash.

My point is to say, keep a very open mind and as a first step try to prove or disprove a harware problem. I start with the hardware because proving a SW problem is almost impossible for any end user, including me, whereas swapping memory or slowing down clocks is possible and usually a fairly good troubleshooting method. Also swapping components is possible if the budget or circumstances allow.

Also do not violate any warranty rules . If they can't fix it get them to replace the system.

OldBuzzard

I think you are right in that hardware plays a role in the TDR issue. However, I don't think that it's the cause. I think that there is something of a 'timing' issue within Vista that is causing it.

No two pieces of hardware are identical. Each is made of various components that have +/- tolerances. So each one will perform just a wee bit differently that the other, based on the combinations of tolerances of the various components. Not only that, but since we are talking about electronic components, heat and aging will also play a role in their performance. Now, multiply that by all of the different pieces of hardware in a computer, and we will find that even 2 computers built with the same parts will each perform just a bit differently.

I think that this 'difference' is where the problem starts. Vista is 'expecting' certain 'things' to happen at certain 'times', and for various components to be available at certain times. Even these, within Vista, have a certain tolerance as well. Now, if we are unlucky enough to have a mix of components that prevent this from happening, and this can be in the range of micro or milli seconds, Vista, for lack of a better or more accurate defination, issues a TDR, hoping that the delay will give the system time to respond to a timeing problem that, in truth, may have absolutely nothing to do with the video card or it's driver.

There are a couple of things that lead me to believe this. One, is that for some people, replacing a video card or other component will cure it, even if they replace it with an "identical' one. Second, we see that there are people that are TDR free for weeks, or months, and 'suddenly' they start getting them. In the first case, you are 'out of tolerance' to start with, and in the second, you go 'out of tolerance' as the components age.

I'm thinking that the REAL CURE will come if/when Microsoft takes a good look at Vista, and 'opens up' the ranges of times that it's expecting certain events to occur.

So yes, you could say that it's a HARDWARE problem, but in truth, I believe that it's caused by the way the SOFTWARE handles the hardware.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

OldBuzzard

Sounds like a couple of problems there.

First the 'page_fault_in_nonpage_area blue screen'. That's ANOTHER of the 'catchall' BSODS in windows. It's the good old 0x00000050. It normally points to bad memory, but in testing I finally ruled that out. I was getting them when I went from 4GB to 8GB on this system, and finally 'stumbled' onto the the cure. For me, and your results may vary, it turned out that I had to go into the BIOS, and enable the ACPI HPET Table. You can find the entire discussion about it here: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/hardware...-problems.html There are also some other tidbits of advice there that may help as well, if my 'cure' doesn't work.

As for the TDR, have you tried the MSCONFIG/BOOT fix? That one seems to help more people that any other one. I use it, and also have AERO disabled and I'm rock solid with no TDR's at all over several months since doing them.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Freelancer

I can't "disable Aero" if I'm using Vista Home Basic, right? Thanks.

CATALYSTCATCHER

I agree.

But there are numerous TDR sufferers that do have a HW fault triggering the issue. The clearest example are those that eventually replace RAM and are cured.

As there is no single magic bullet that will cure everyone, I believe it is wise to initially advise taking a good hard look at what may actually be the trigger. i.e. the HW. Staring with the easy items and expanding out when they seem OK. In that way at least some will rid themselves of a nasty problem. Actually for those people the TDR is doing what it should.

The reality is that you must always start with HW, because SW can not be stable/predictable if the HW running the SW is not 100% predicatble/stable.

If we could reliably reproduce a TDR we would investigate the code and either fix or workaround the problem. And for some TDR scenarios we have done that. But most TDRs seem completely random, leaving us without a starting point.

But like I said I agree. Something is not quite right in the SW. MS? ATI? NV? Creative? Network? etc? No idea where or who, but somewhere lurking in the depths there is a potential TDR.

Yes, timing. Take my case, where swapping out an LCD panel has completely cured the TDRs. None in 4 months, were previously they occured almost daily. BTW: That LCD panel has taken up residence on a developers desk for continued investigation. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he never encounters a TDR.


BTW: To function properly system RAM must be good but so must the motherboard that the RAM plugs into. So just because all RAM sticks test good, does not mean you don't have a RAM problem. Albeit, the mobo could be the source, not the RAM. This point is rarely considered but in some cases can be critical.

Essentially a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link. It does not matter how strong the strongest link is.
(replace strong with fast and weak with slow)

CC

maxwell005

I dont think it was the ram as well... why? because i also have a geforce 8600gt and when i try it instead of the ATI 4850 it works perfectly with the 2 sticks ... but when i plug in my 4850 the tdr starts... how could you explain that ? its really weird. Having 1 2gb stick instead of 2 1gb sticks really was the solution for me. I even use both of my 1 gb sticks in another system and it works perfectly (along with my 8600 gt). So it clearly wasnt my ram

BadMouth

[OldBuzzard:]
[So yes, you could say that it's a HARDWARE problem, but in truth, I believe that it's caused by the way the SOFTWARE handles the hardware.]

I believe it’s a software issue myself.
When I had my ex ATI 2600XT installed for the first time, it ran well, all games all applications you name it, not one TDR issue. After 3 days time all hell broke loose. I believe the fault lye’s in the hardware configuration section, when windows boots up. Why I believe this? Because from my own experiences and helping others with this issue, all had no issues of TDR’s occurring when:

1). Switching the ATI video card to another card such as Nvidia. After running the system for a day or two, we shut down the system and remove the Nvidia card and put the ATI card back. Most systems would run perfectly for a few days and even sometimes a week, before the issue starts again.

2). When removing 1 or 2 sticks of ram, or setting the BIOS to default settings, or removing a LCD monitor and even removing a hard drive. Run the system for a couple of days with its new configuration would cause no TDR’s to occur. Then putting back the ram sticks or resetting the BIOS back to its previous state or reconnecting the LCD monitor and or hard drive. The system would run perfectly for a couple of hrs or days before TDR’s start again.

This tells me that some variables within the hardware configuration are changing when they should not. This is why some people can run their system with a new hardware configuration for quite some time before the TDR’s start again. Sometimes when they occur, they either occur for a couple of times, then they stop completely for days and sometimes they continue constantly until something is changed or reconfigured.

This is why when a person buys a brand new laptop right of the shelf containing an ATI card, I say ATI, because these are the systems I dealt with. Got no TDR’s for the first week or so, then BAM, once they have received the TDR’s they kept on coming repeatedly, until either hardware has been changed, or until it solves on its own.

Software issue is the culprit, but is it Vista configuring these variables, or is it the drivers?
We may never know.
B.M

OldBuzzard

I agree that it's Hardware+Software. I just think that the hardware plays a lesser role. I think that Vista is just expecting response times that are too 'tight'. I believe that what's happening is that Vista wants certain events too occur within a certain time, and some hardware configurations just can't meet those times.

Just as an illustration, lets use seconds just to make it a bit easier to understand. Lets say that Vista issues a command to the Video Card, and wants to see the card respond in 2 seconds. Now, not all video cards are going to respond in exactly 2 seconds. Some will respond in 1.75 and others at 2.25. OK, so they program Vista to accept that response at any time between 1.75-2.25 seconds. However, lets say that due to OTHER components in your system, YOUR video card doesn't respond until 2.26 seconds. Now you get TDRs. Thats where I believe the problem exixts. Vista needs to be opened up a bit to allow for that. I think that Vista is just a bit too 'fault intollerant', if you will.

Actually the reverse could also happen. It's possible that your card responds at 1.74, and Vista isn't quick enough to see it, and assumes that it didn't get the response at all. It's quite possible that some hardware is 'too fast' for Vista.

I do find it "interesting", that the TDR issue seems to be a problem for people with the newer/faster cards. In my case an ATI X1950GT was rock solid. I only startred getting TDR's when I upgraded to the 3870 X2. I'm not the only one that this has happend to, and it really seems to be quite common for that to happen.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

AntiAlias

I am new to this thread and only registered to post on this one. I built a new dual core system end of last year (2007):
MSI P965 Platinum mobo
Intel E2180 dual core o/c to 2.4GHz
4 Gig of ELIXIR 1024MB DDR2 800 PC6400 Memory
ATI HD 2600 xt video card, now crossfire too

I started with XP 32 bit but wanted to use all my memory so upgraded to Vista.
Then the problems started with complete BSOD and later TDRs and serious problems rebooting, for 9 months I read everything here and elsewhere and installed numerous different drivers, tried many different things. Finally one Saturday I just couldn't do anything, just crash after crash, even once when I opened notepad. In fact I rarely got the problem when stressing my system playing games. I wanted to use all my memory so I took the plunge and went for XP x64. I created dual boot to match the two OS. I have changed ATI drivers several times on XP and in about 7 weeks no crashes, rock solid, absolutely love it. I returned to Vista about 3 times in all this time only quickly. Today, minutes ago I went back in to view a project solution in Visual C++ which I haven't installed on XP yet. Immediately, first time in 7 weeks, complete system crash!!! I am going to uninstall Vista and just stick with XP x64. If Windows 7 has the same problem I will switch more over to Linux and keep XP for as long as possible just for gaming. Vista is broke. You cannot fix it at your end so why are you bothering? The crashes people report on XP are probably no more than normal and attributable to the normal run of faulty systems. I watched a video other day where Bill Gates was asked the question "What Microsoft release in the last 5 years would you say needed a bit more testing first" he responded laughing nervously "I will answer that after we release the next version of Windows". Clear admission that they want to sweep Vista under the carpet.

randle

Ok well after much much frustration i thought i'd register just to add something to this post.
I recently bought a new all singing all dancing rig and was incredibly upset to see the "Display driver stopped responding" error message so early in its life. I've been searching many forums and found this thread to be the most active and so have been checking on a regular basis.

I have a similar setup to many people here: Fresh Vista 32bit install and also tried 64bit + Dual Monitors and was getting this error regularly.

I've tried out most of the suggestions mentioned above: Updated drivers, using only a single RAM module, Disabling Aero, Disable second monitor, memtest, reg frags to change the TDR to 10 seconds etc. I'm aware that some people have reported success when trying some of the above suggestions but the fact that none of these worked for me proves that these are not what's causing this issue otherwise i and many others wouldn't still be getting this problem.

I'm sure this isn't down to ATI drivers seeing as nVidia users also get a similar system response so after pondering over this i noticed that this only happens to me after an hour or so of game playing, WoW to be specific...why wasn't this happening straight away!? While i was swapping out RAM modules i had the side cover off and left it like this. Since this i've played a 9 hour WoW session with no errors whatsoever...I was lucky initially if this lasted Two!

Normally i would wait for at least a month before celebrating success but i can't ignore the fact that this happened so regularly and since having the case side off, i haven't had one and so makes me feel this is down to my rig overheating. Have you tried this? If it was faulty HW then this wouldn't make a difference but can't really think what else can it be!?

Another reason why i think this may be heat related is down to the fact that i've had Vista for over a year and had no issue like this at all on my old rig so must be down to the new setup and the heat that's generated now by some of these cards must make quite a difference.

Anyway i hope this works for others. Let me know

CATALYSTCATCHER

Yes, heat is a good possibility, particularly when the TDRs occur when gaming and the GPU is generating more heat.

But heat is only bad because it influences the way all the components work. In fact there are many cases where spot cooling electronic components is a valid technique for finding the weak component. You can still get the stuff. Freeze Mist: Discount Prices on Freeze Mist at ITC Electronics

Also consider the recent problems that NV is suffering through. The problem as described in the press is a perfect example of how heat can influence component reliability. Whether the NV story is true or not, it is an ugly nightmare for any and all manufactures to contemplate.

If heat is trigering the problem you can increase cooling but only time will tell if the problem is really cured.

mailinator

Post #1203 worked!
"I have the reg key here so you can easily import it. This is for Vista:
http://ordorica.org/misc/tdrdelay.reg"

I am using a cheap no fan ati card for work, but the fact that some people only have the problem in vista makes me think it isn't actually hardware related.

Thanks for the info, the solution has worked great. I was crashing daily and now I have been fine for a week.

andyFg23

Hi all

Same issues here.

I get the "ATIKMDAG stopped responding has recovered" issues a few times a week (twice today though!) and I am just using 2 monitors with my HD 3650 and do NO gaming.

My set up is Vista Premium, 3 gb ram (3 sticks but have tried just 1), HD 3650 with catalyst 8.10 (have tried all from 7.6) and plenty of ventilation in the case.
1 interesting thing I have found is if the pc goes into the 3 errors loop, before the BSOD crash and I do CTRL, ALT Delete and switch users so I get back to the login screen and then remote desktop into my pc from another pc I can work away fine on the knackered PC which rules out the overheating / faulty RAM etc doesn't it?

As soon as I login locally to the same pc the crash continues looping and crashes even thoguht it has been working PERFECTLY since the crash via remote desktop!

simland

Just wanted to note that I am still getting this error and it is only while playing WoW. Crysis, Fallout 3, SPORE and Merc 2 all work fine. The time to TDR is essentially random with no dependency on in game settings. It'd almost be nice if I could see this error elsewhere so that I could have more info for trouble shooting.

Vista 64 bit, 8 gb of DDR2 RAM, HD4870, Latest CCC

reggie14

Can you provide some more details about your situation? I know you've been posting about this for a while, but it's a little difficult to piece together your situation from a bunch of posts spaced weeks (and months) apart.

So, I know you were using 2 monitors. What were their resolutions? Were you using DVI or VGA for one, both or neither? I think they were both LCD displays, but I also see you were talking about their refresh rates. I didn't think refresh rates actually meant anything on LCDs. What monitor did you swap out and what did you replace it with to fix your problem? And, if you have any other details that you think are relevant, please provide those.

Thanks for your help with this problem.

CATALYSTCATCHER

First off I do not believe there is anything conclusive from my scenario.

Refresh rate does impact DFPs but in a different way than with CRTs. Essentially the graphics card is still doing the same as always but with a digital connection the refresh rate determines the rate or frequency that the digital data is transmitted over the digital connection. As you know the digital connection will only have a max bandwidth to reliably transmit the data and essentially cannot go any faster without signal degradation of some kind. That us why a single link DVI is effectively limited to 1600 x 1200 at 60 hz.

My panel that seems to trigger TDR was using 1920 x1200 at 41 hz and did not trigger TDR if set to 1600 x1200 60. So I replaced it with a dual link 1920 x1200 running 60 and there are no more TDRs.

The offending panel is a viewsonic 2290B which is NOT typical for average users. Look up the specs and you will know why. :-)

The replacement is a 1920 x1200 native Apple display. a little more common but still not very common for PC users.

The PRIMARY panel thru all the TDR days is a BENQ 1920x1200 on HDMI.

I think there are two possibilities in my case.

One is that the DVI for the 2290B which is known to be out of spec would occasionally drop out and return causing the display driver a problem to reliably recover.

The other is that the 41HZ refresh was contributing to the problem and the asynchronous nature of the TDR occurance.

In any case, I believe my experience and situation are just 1 of many possibilities that trigger the TDR.

The 2290B is currently on a developers desk to see if he can figure out why it seems to cause problems. But I have heard nothing in a few weeks, so I doubt much will come of the investigation.


BTW: disjointed details is one I suffer in the forums as well. It does make it difficult to get a clear picture.

Gogolinho

mas911

just my two coins to the pot, the only solution that helped was to disable Aero, before that I've experienced BSOD every ~48 hours or less, registry and many other tricks didn't work at all, after changing registry BSODs are gone, but the system just hanged badly, all this happened during non-gaming work without any trackable order. I have a two monitor system, Vista Ultimate SP1, Q6600, PowerColor 4850, 8gb ram, no overclocking, no overheating, no power insufficiency and XP64 as a second OS worked over 2 month w/o interruption restarting only when it was necessary.

rychas

Has anyone tried the 8.11 drivers yet? As always, the first Vista fix ATI has made was to improve 3 or 4 fps on some stupid game.

OldBuzzard

You may have "a ''small'' problem with atimdag.", but you also have a LARGE attitude problem.

We will always "(excuse for bad English)", but there damned few of us here that will "(excuse for bad attitude)" like you are displaying in this post.

And just so you know, nVidia owners have the same problem with nvlddmkm.sys which is their equivilent to ATI's atimdag.sys. IF you would have bothered to read any of the other posts in this thread you might have found that out. You would also have found a number of "fixes" that some of us have found that HAVE cured our TDR problems.

Read you own post again, and ask yourself if you would be be likely to help ME if I said something like that to YOU.

Post again, ask NICELY, and I'll try to help you in any way that I can. So will other people. Keep your current attitude, and you will most likely be ignored.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Gogolinho

sorry but I was very nervous
I tried almost everything: remove 2 GIGA rama, a class theme, the old driver ... I have from the outset that error. But yesterday I really crazy

SORRY!

OldBuzzard

Well, we all get stressed at times.

Now that you have calmed down a bit...Welcome to Driverheaven

Have you tried the msconfig/boot "fix"? That one along with turning off AERO is what worked for me.

msconfig/boot fix:
1. Run MSCONFIG in a command prompt.
2. Click the BOOT tab
3. Click on ADVANCED options.
4. Put a CHECK in 'Number of Processors", and then select the number of processors your system has. , 1 for a single, 2 for a dual core, 4 for a quad.
5. Put a CHECK in 'Maximum memory", and key in amount of RAM you have.
6. CLick OK, Click APPLY, and re-boot when prompted.

Also, scroll back up to posts #1203 ans 1207. That's a registry addition that seems to help quite a few people as well.

You may not be able to completely eliminate TDRs, but you might get the frequency down to something that you can live with until the definative fix can be found.

Good luck. ALL of us that have had, or are still having, TDRs need it

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Dyre Straits

As I've mentioned previously, I've only recently started seeing TDRs on my Vista system. One thing I've done that seems to cause them the most is to enable my 2nd Monitor. I do still have Aero enabled, but, as long as I stay with just the one monitor I rarely see a TDR. In fact, I really can't recall having one as long as I don't have my 2nd monitor enabled. I'll do a better job of noticing the situation for the next occurance.

In the situations where I've had them, it seems to most frequently occur when I've had both monitors active during gaming. And, it's when I quit the game that this seems to happen the most. It may be related to something CatalystCatcher also pointed out previously and that's how Vista sets a limit on the time for communication from the graphics driver/hardware and the resetting of the monitor resolution...especially, maybe....if it's different from the gaming resolution.

OR, could it even be related to the fact that the video card is switching down from 3D speeds to 2D speeds?

I've not been inclined to do much troubleshooting on this as it happens so rarely I might go a week or two without any instance of a TDR.

But, as also pointed out by others, I've had them when simply browsing the WEB and click a couple of keys to activate something I'm viewing. The 'recovered' message has flashed as many as 5 times before the system restarts. Sometimes, it recovers without rebooting.

I can certainly sympathize with anyone who's having this happen on any kind of a regular basis. BUT, again, as CatalystCatcher has pointed out several times in this thread, it's nigh impossible to fix something when you can't narrow down exactly what it is that's causing it. Trying to do 'something just for the sake of doing it' might actually cause more problems than it helps.

__________________