Win2003 'sticky' NTFS folder-meta files

WxMan1 · Mar 2, 2011, 01:32 AM

I'm running Win2003 and have a problem with these pesky *::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR folders. The problem they cause is that they are essentially inmovable (even during boot-time defrag). As a result, fragmentation of free space becomes a problem.

I'm using Ultimate Defrag v3 as the tool of choice; it allows placement of the $MFT, $LOG and aother sundry NTFS metafiles (including size of 'reserved for MFT' block), the sequential order of such sundry NTFS metafiles, AND the precise starting block of said metafile 'block' (where existing data would get shoveled out of the way to accomodate such placement).

The problem is virtually non-existant if the files are embedded throughout the 'data', however, if they exist in some arbitrary cluster within and apparent several GB of free space there's going to be an issue creating a contiguous swap.

It also horks up the placement of files when defrag determines the sort order of file placement for a file larger than the amount of space available in the cluster chain than required due the presence of this nepharious *::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR folder type-file.

E.g., C:\Windows\system32\WBEM::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR is one of the offending culprits.

Now, it should be brought fore-front-and-center that Ultimate Defrag does a 'aggregate folders to near the $MFT' operation since at least v1.72; but apparently NOBODY knows how to deal w/*.::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR folders, eh?

Takaharu · Mar 2, 2011, 08:11 AM

What is it that you're ultimately trying to accomplish?
From what I can gather in that post you're using a third-party tool to defrag the harddrive of a server that has immovable secure operating system folders, the type of which are usually left alone any defragging if I'm not mistaken.

WxMan1 · Mar 4, 2011, 04:59 AM

You got it about right.

Due to the fact that I only have an ISO image of the Win2003 Std R2 OS (from which I extracted the necessary files via WinRAR), the initial installation was performed via WINNT.EXE to an initially FAT32 partition. The system partion was subsequently convert /fs:ntfs.

Is it possible that this - ::Security_Descriptor folders - problem is an outgrowth of formatting the system partition NTFS v5.1, i.e., from WinXP SP2 install CD? It is my understanding that Win2003 native NTFS is v5.2.

I've looked into this and my understanding is that NTFS will 'externalize' MFT entries that won't 'fit' into the MFT. The MFT has plenty of space to grow so I'm not clear on what that actually means.

Perhaps the problem stems from my having had to restore system partition images made w/Symantec Ghost per System Works 2003, i.e., the version of Ghost that I'm using doesn't comprehend the nuances of NTFS v5.2?

BTW: NSW 2003 will not install into Win2003 Std R2 (duh). AFAIKTBT, NSW 2004 (and all later versions) is [are] on the MS compatibility list for Win2003.

WxMan1 · May 23, 2011, 12:45 AM

Wooo Hooo! I fingered out the prollem!

Its non-default NTFS security properties.

The problem child's were all related to TERMINAL SERVER USER NTFS rights to %ProgramFiles%\. Given that I'm configured as a stand-alone server, I removed TERMINAL SERVER USER rights for that folder and my problem was solved.

I also discovered you can't do that to %Win2003_SystemDrive% while in a WinXP session selected from dual-boot menu. While it will appear that everything is hunky-dory while in the WinXP session - anything one's heart desires can be accompished to the %Win2003_SystemDrive%, booting into Win2003 resulted in %systemdrive%\driver\ntfs.sys missing or corrupt crash at boot.

Now, sharp that I am, I booted into WinXP and launched GhostExplorer right out of the %Win2003_ApplicationDrive% while in my WinXP session, and overwrote %Win2003%/%systemroot%/driver/ntfs.sys with an copy extracted from a Ghost image of a known working system; although it booted, it soon became obvious that is a sure-fire way to get a wonky system.

I ended up having to reformat and restore from image to get sanity back.

After booting into Win2003, I removed the unneeded user NTFS access right and I noticed that it spun its gears for quite a while until that operations was complete (something I didn't notice when I did that in WinXP session).

So what I'm going to do now is make an ntbackup of %Win2003_SystemDrive% while in WinXP session. Then I'm going to format %Win2003_SystemDrive% as FAT32, and then convert /fs:ntfs
after booting into Win2003. That way I'll know the %Win2003_SystemDrive% will have the corect Win2003 NTFS version.

Mar 2, 2011, 01:32 AM	#1
WxMan1 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 221 Rep Power: 40	Win2003 'sticky' NTFS folder-meta files I'm running Win2003 and have a problem with these pesky ::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR folders. The problem they cause is that they are essentially inmovable (even during boot-time defrag). As a result, fragmentation of free space becomes a problem. I'm using Ultimate Defrag v3 as the tool of choice; it allows placement of the $MFT, $LOG and aother sundry NTFS metafiles (including size of 'reserved for MFT' block), the sequential order of such sundry NTFS metafiles, AND the precise starting block of said metafile 'block' (where existing data would get shoveled out of the way to accomodate such placement). The problem is virtually non-existant if the files are embedded throughout the 'data', however, if they exist in some arbitrary cluster within and apparent several GB of free space there's going to be an issue creating a contiguous swap. It also horks up the placement of files when defrag determines the sort order of file placement for a file larger than the amount of space available in the cluster chain than required due the presence of this nepharious ::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR folder type-file. E.g., C:\Windows\system32\WBEM::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR is one of the offending culprits. Now, it should be brought fore-front-and-center that Ultimate Defrag does a 'aggregate folders to near the $MFT' operation since at least v1.72; but apparently NOBODY knows how to deal w/*.::$SECURITY_DESCRIPTOR folders, eh?

Mar 2, 2011, 08:11 AM	#2
Takaharu I can fart in 7 languages Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: England, UK Posts: 1,864 Rep Power: 113 System Specs	Re: Win2003 'sticky' NTFS folder-meta files What is it that you're ultimately trying to accomplish? From what I can gather in that post you're using a third-party tool to defrag the harddrive of a server that has immovable secure operating system folders, the type of which are usually left alone any defragging if I'm not mistaken. __________________ I don't get paid to know the answer, therefore I'm far more likely to give you a straight and honest answer. Mods Rig, Box Mods Rig, Folding details

Mar 4, 2011, 04:59 AM	Thread Starter #3
WxMan1 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 221 Rep Power: 40	Re: Win2003 'sticky' NTFS folder-meta files You got it about right. Due to the fact that I only have an ISO image of the Win2003 Std R2 OS (from which I extracted the necessary files via WinRAR), the initial installation was performed via WINNT.EXE to an initially FAT32 partition. The system partion was subsequently convert /fs:ntfs. Is it possible that this - ::Security_Descriptor folders - problem is an outgrowth of formatting the system partition NTFS v5.1, i.e., from WinXP SP2 install CD? It is my understanding that Win2003 native NTFS is v5.2. I've looked into this and my understanding is that NTFS will 'externalize' MFT entries that won't 'fit' into the MFT. The MFT has plenty of space to grow so I'm not clear on what that actually means. Perhaps the problem stems from my having had to restore system partition images made w/Symantec Ghost per System Works 2003, i.e., the version of Ghost that I'm using doesn't comprehend the nuances of NTFS v5.2? BTW: NSW 2003 will not install into Win2003 Std R2 (duh). AFAIKTBT, NSW 2004 (and all later versions) is [are] on the MS compatibility list for Win2003. Last edited by WxMan1; Mar 4, 2011 at 05:05 AM.

May 23, 2011, 12:45 AM	Thread Starter #4
WxMan1 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 221 Rep Power: 40	Re: Win2003 'sticky' NTFS folder-meta files Wooo Hooo! I fingered out the prollem! Its non-default NTFS security properties. The problem child's were all related to TERMINAL SERVER USER NTFS rights to %ProgramFiles%\. Given that I'm configured as a stand-alone server, I removed TERMINAL SERVER USER rights for that folder and my problem was solved. I also discovered you can't do that to %Win2003_SystemDrive% while in a WinXP session selected from dual-boot menu. While it will appear that everything is hunky-dory while in the WinXP session - anything one's heart desires can be accompished to the %Win2003_SystemDrive%, booting into Win2003 resulted in %systemdrive%\driver\ntfs.sys missing or corrupt crash at boot. Now, sharp that I am, I booted into WinXP and launched GhostExplorer right out of the %Win2003_ApplicationDrive% while in my WinXP session, and overwrote %Win2003%/%systemroot%/driver/ntfs.sys with an copy extracted from a Ghost image of a known working system; although it booted, it soon became obvious that is a sure-fire way to get a wonky system. I ended up having to reformat and restore from image to get sanity back. After booting into Win2003, I removed the unneeded user NTFS access right and I noticed that it spun its gears for quite a while until that operations was complete (something I didn't notice when I did that in WinXP session). So what I'm going to do now is make an ntbackup of %Win2003_SystemDrive% while in WinXP session. Then I'm going to format %Win2003_SystemDrive% as FAT32, and then convert /fs:ntfs after booting into Win2003. That way I'll know the %Win2003_SystemDrive% will have the corect Win2003 NTFS version. Last edited by WxMan1; May 23, 2011 at 01:01 AM.