[Raptor]

I just added another gb of ram to my system. I now have 2gb of PC3200 twinX installed. I was wondering if a "swap file" is even needed now. I'm running XP home with SP2 installed. Any thoughts? I disabled it and the system seems to be running as smoothly as it ever did. The adddition of the second gig of ram by the way *did* improve the new mega games a notch or so, HL2/D3/FarCry/Riddick do run very smoothly now.

[Judas]

yes, you do... just unlikely that you'll need such a large one...

IF you do anything related to Ripping DVD's... encoding... Art Related stuff such as using photoshop..... it's a nessitty and should be kept at rather large yet. other stuff not so big... 128mb initial MINIMUM.

Although in your case, i'd run a initial of 512 with a max of 4096 all on a seperate partition. Regaurdless of what you do, all programs hit the Page file/Virtual Memory.

[XXwabbit]

I've read somewhere that you don't have to have one. They said that you'll know if you need it on. I have mine off with no probs yet.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Judas

yes, you do... just unlikely that you'll need such a large one...

IF you do anything related to Ripping DVD's... encoding... Art Related stuff such as using photoshop..... it's a nessitty and should be kept at rather large yet. other stuff not so big... 128mb initial MINIMUM.

Although in your case, i'd run a initial of 512 with a max of 4096 all on a seperate partition. Regaurdless of what you do, all programs hit the Page file/Virtual Memory.

Glad I asked. I do use the dvd burner alot and paintshop pro and photoshop elements as well. I did move the Page File to the slave 120gb HD. I read that data can be accessed faster that way although I don't know if thats true either

[Judas]

actually it is true.... if your program files and windows not to mention games are on one physical drive and the swap is on the other, responce and overall system preformance can be quite noticeable.

Perferably, its best to create a 5gb partition at the VERY START of the secondary drive. this reduced fragmentation of other files and the swap file itself and guarntees the best overall speed.

[Dyre Straits]

I like to keep my swapfile on a drive other than my system drive, too. Not only that, but I prefer it to be on a completely different IDE channel.

[mkk]

Win2000 and WinXP will automatically create a pagefile even if the system is set to No Paging File. It is best to have the same value for Min and Max page size, since otherwise the pagefile risks getting fragmented. Give it a fair size unless you're short of disk space, to avoid having the system complain about the pagefile being too small. With as much as 2GB RAM a pagefile of 1GB will be fine for gaming and most any other kind of task.

[Zelig]

Originally Posted by mkk

Win2000 and WinXP will automatically create a pagefile even if the system is set to No Paging File. It is best to have the same value for Min and Max page size, since otherwise the pagefile risks getting fragmented. Give it a fair size unless you're short of disk space, to avoid having the system complain about the pagefile being too small. With as much as 2GB RAM a pagefile of 1GB will be fine for gaming and most any other kind of task.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Even when the virtual memory's set to off, check the task manager, everything will still be using page file space.

[mkk]

Originally Posted by Zelig

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Even when the virtual memory's set to off, check the task manager, everything will still be using page file space.

Actually, the Page File Usage display in Task Manager is wrong because it labels all memory usage as page file usage. I have no idea why Microsoft has not corrected the labeling of that display for all this time.

[Zelig]

I meant to enable the VM Size column in the processes tab, it shows how much VM each program uses.

[mkk]

Ah, my mistake. That VM Size column is probably correct, though I haven't really eyed it much.

[PangingJr]

Originally Posted by Zelig

Even when the virtual memory's set to off, check the task manager, everything will still be using page file space.

when No paging file - VM Size in TM.

VM Size - is the total private virtual memory allocated to the process.
the number you see on each process can be allocated of user space in the RAM if it's available.

[PangingJr]

Originally Posted by XXwabbit

I've read somewhere that you don't have to have one. They said that you'll know if you need it on. I have mine off with no probs yet.

taken from somewhere i can't remember but i think it explains something to me and may be for you too..

Although some people use the term "virtual memory" to refer to the page file, Microsoft uses it to refer to all the memory available, the combination of RAM and Page file. So the app doesn't ask separately for R bytes and V memory bytes, it asks just for V bytes of virtual memory.

Those V bytes will initially be allocated in RAM if it's available. Any part of V that isn't available in RAM will be allocated in the page file. Then what happens to the bytes in RAM if they aren't actually used is that, as other demands on memory are made, these unused allocations will quickly be paged out to the page file in accordance with the Least Recently Used algorithm.

This is why it hurts you if you turn off the page file. Those unused allocations stay in RAM, locking out their use for other applications, because they have nowhere else to go.

The request is made for total virtual memory, not separately for RAM and page file. The operating system then handles the allocation and decides where to put it.

[mkk]

It's true that Virtual Memory really is RAM+Pagefile, though it gets tricky with telling what's what in Microsoft software and others for that matter when they use these terms so loosely. When they in some cases get it wrong then it gets difficult to say when they are truly right. If they are using the Virtual Memory Size column correctly then yes the amount should definitely be RAM+page.

When "turning off" the page file in Win2000 or WinXp the system creates a pagefile anyway, under a different name and location that I don't remember out of my head. It starts off at a low value of about 20MB and can probably grow as needed. So leave it on since it cannot truly be turned off, and since the automatically generated page file is also out of the users control.

[DosCervezas]

Some good info on Paging Files here-->>[color=blue]http://www.theeldergeek.com/paging_file.htm[/color]

There are 7 sections all together so be sure to click on the links at the bottom of the first article I linked to.

[The_Neon_Cowboy]

Why in the sam hell are you guys reccomending 1GB - 5GB page files
thats freaking insane! maybe if running a corprate sever with 128mb of ram LOL

Since your gameing 512-1024 should be fine

When you set a page file unless you what a highly fragemented page file and hard drive you need to set the same for MIN and MAX size.....

You should allways have a page file, the more ram you have the less page file you need but you do need to have one....Most i've ever used was 1.5GB becouse of the windows XP default but I use 512-1024mb max myself... It's rarely used but some programs require it....You can also set it to not page out inactive programs but it will use alot more memory. You can set always unload unused dll's and thats a memory saver!

Originally Posted by mkk

It's true that Virtual Memory really is RAM+Pagefile, though it gets tricky with telling what's what in Microsoft software and others for that matter when they use these terms so loosely.

though
Commit Charge = Physical memory (ram) + (virtual memory) Page File ...

since like windows 95/98 and up page file has been refured to as been called virtual memory. HD space used to store data as if it where ram... and it can be disabled.... Maybe they went a diffrent route with NT based OSes I dunno...I will always think of it tha way MS can't change horses in mid stream as to what = what...

Originally Posted by mkk

Win2000 and WinXP will automatically create a pagefile even if the system is set to No Paging File.

Does Not happen on any of my systems, you have to disable and reboot and even then some cases the swap file it self is present but deleteable

I useally format.. install disable the page file reboot, defragment, create a set page file... reboot.... tweak...

Originally Posted by Dyre Straits

I like to keep my swapfile on a drive other than my system drive, too. Not only that, but I prefer it to be on a completely different IDE channel.

that can be so...

but the rule of thumb was to always use the fastest drive. I've tried spanning my page file across drives it sucks, so nobody even bother it actually cuts performance for games. I mean if you useing two 120gb drives then no it doesnt matter but if you use a large fast drive and a small slower one the page file is useally better off on the faster drive... Asumeing you not ripping video or running a file sever day and night... or simular

I wish they'd come out with volitile memory based virtual drive... or a small fast quiet hard drive to use as swap... but it'll probubly never happen..

Everybodys systems and thier uses are diffrent it's best to play around
and deside what you like... and what works for you!


Well thats my 2 bits

[Judas]

The benifits of setting aside a 5gb partition and then setting a initial size with a max being the maximum windows can allocate on a single drive (4096mb) is that you simply have NOTHING to worry about, apon booting, and running some games, you want to set an initial size just slightly larger then whats being used when you doing something "worse case senario" as an average. For example, some games or programs i've ran have demanded a page file of over 1.5gb combined with my already 1gb of ram. But that's rare, the most i usually see on any given day while "screwing" around if you will, is about 600-800mb. I set my initial on that system to 1024 (i like to keep to round gb or typical mb numbers).

For a system that after booting, run some of the common games on it you name it and results in the max being used as say 350mb, i set the initial to 512... if it were 200, i'd set it to 384.... It's good idea to give it plenty of leeway, as it prevent Swap File Fragmenations.

Keeping it on a full blown seperate partition improves preformance in more ways then one. It prevents it from fragmenting OTHER files that may be sharing the partition. Decrease DEFRAGMENTING times considerably. And if you can, make the first partition on the hardrive a dedicated swap file, forcing the faster portion of the drive to be used for memory intensive purposes further increase preformance.

[BWX]

I set it to a 1 gig partition, 1024mb initial and ending...
- I have a gig of ram.
I defrag my pagefile once in a while with Perfect disc 6. When I get another FAST HD, I will set a 1.5 gig partition as the pagefile on a separate IDE channel.

Just putting it on a separate partition really helps though..
Unless you run a ramdrive you really need to run a pagefile.

[Judas]

Adobe Programs REALLY DON'T like machines with Page File disabled... trust me, you get some nasty results and very irritating results

Photoshop sucks up memory, doesn't matter were it is, it'll use all your hardrive space if you allow it

[BWX]

Hell yeah- you really need to run one- preferably over 1 gig... at least. With my physical ram and pagefile I have a 2 gig total pagefile, seems to work great with all games and programs..

Someone that runs a whole bunch of programs at once + photoshop or something should really have 2gigs of physical ram I think. Or 1.5 at the least.

[Judas]

Typically, i've ran a good number of programs at once, and i've never hit some of the large ammounts of VM required by some games.

but i'm not doing anything incredible. Zardon i'm sure has nailed well over 5gb while doing work just in VM alone on a single program probably. I wonder how he has his VM all setup?

Although Photoshop has it's own scratch disk and RECOMMENDs that you DON'T put your scratch disk on the same drive as your VM.... multiple scratch disk across a bunch of hardrives does proove quite fast though.

[BWX]

Originally Posted by Judas

Although Photoshop has it's own scratch disk and RECOMMENDs that you DON'T put your scratch disk on the same drive as your VM.... multiple scratch disk across a bunch of hardrives does proove quite fast though.

Yup - that's what I do : )

[md5]

The rule of thumb is that the size of the page file should be 2.5 times the amount of RAM installed. However, the default settings work just fine for me, I found no need to make my page file static and that big

[PangingJr]

Judas did that because he has a lot of free HDD space, and maybe that gives him a trouble-free computing experiences.

Judas, you can set it likes 3000/4000 or 4000/4000 you know cos you've already set asided the HDD space.-- the lower number at the min is good for space saving and the pagefile.sys is set in the boot partition/drive.

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i couldn't find the info that i need about the Performance monitor setting about this for the XP 32-bit,
but all the names, settings and all of the applets in the MMC should be the same...
i would say you can also use the followings as your guildline on the min/max of the custom size paging file, if you like.

How to determine the appropriate page file size for 64-bit versions of Windows Server 2003 or Windows XP - http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=889654&SD=tech

When you set up a 32-bit version or a 64-bit version of Windows Server 2003 or Windows XP, a page file is created that is one and a half times the amount of RAM that is installed in the computer provided there is sufficient free space on the system hard disk. However, as more RAM is added to a computer, the need for a page file decreases. If you have enough RAM installed in your computer, you may not require a page file at all, unless one is required by a specific application.

"When no page file exists, or the page file is insufficient, the system reserves some virtual memory in the physical memory for its paging needs."

How to calculate page file size

Use one or more of the following methods to help you calculate page file size.

Method 1: Use performance logs to understand the paging activity on your computer
1.Click Start, point to Administrative Tools, and then click Performance.
2.Expand Performance Logs and Alerts, click Counter Logs, right-click the blank space in the right-pane, and then click New Log Settings.
3.In the Name box, type a name for the log, and then click OK.
4.On the General tab, click Add Counters.
5.Click Use local computer counters.
6.In the Performance object list, click Paging File.
7.Click Select counters from list, click % Usage, and then click Add.
8.In the Performance object list, click Memory.
9.In Select counters from list, click Available Bytes, and then click Add.
10.In Select counters from list, click Pages Input/sec, click Add, and then click Close.
11.Click OK.

Use the log that you collect during typical computer use to understand the paging activity on your computer. Then, adjust the page file size accordingly.


Method 2: Use the Page File Bytes Peak counter to calculate page file size
1.Click Start, point to Administrative Tools, and then click Performance.
2.Click System Monitor.
3.In the right pane, click + (the Add button).
4.Click Use local computer counters.
5.In the Performance object list, click Process.
6.Click Select counters from list, click Page File Bytes Peak, click Add, and then click Close.
7.Let the counter run during typical use of your computer.
8.Note the maximum value for the Page File Bytes Peak counter, and then multiply the value by 70. The sum of the equation is the size to set for your page file.


Method 3: Calculate the minimum and maximum page file size

To determine the approximate minimum page file that is required by your system, calculate the sum of peak private bytes that are used by each process on the system. Then, subtract the amount of memory on the system.

To determine the approximate maximum page file space that is required for your system, calculate the sum of peak private bytes that are used by each process on the system. Then, add a margin of additional space. Do not subtract the amount of memory on the system. The size of the additional margin can be adjusted based on your confidence in the snapshot data that is used to estimate page file requirements.

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as for the initial questions..

Originally Posted by Big Red

I now have 2gb of PC3200 twinX installed. I was wondering if a "swap file" is even needed now.

Big Red, pls aee this article...
RAM, Virtual Memory, Pagefile and all that stuff
http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;555223

Pagefile

RAM is a limited resource, whereas virtual memory is, for most practical purposes, unlimited. There can be a large number of processes each with its own 2 GB of private virtual address space. When the memory in use by all the existing processes exceeds the amount of RAM available, the operating system will move pages (4 KB pieces) of one or more virtual address spaces to the computer’s hard disk, thus freeing that RAM frame for other uses. In Windows systems, these “paged out” pages are stored in one or more files called pagefile.sys in the root of a partition. There can be one such file in each disk partition. The location and size of the page file is configured in SystemProperties, Advanced, Performance (click the Settings button).

A frequently asked question is how big should I make the pagefile? There is no single answer to this question, because it depends on the amount of installed RAM and how much virtual memory that workload requires. If there is no other information available, the normal recommendation of 1.5 times the amount of RAM in the computer is a good place to start. On server systems, a common objective is to have enough RAM so that there is never a shortage and the pagefile is essentially, not used. On these systems, having a really large pagefile may serve no useful purpose. On the other hand, disk space is usually plentiful, so having a large pagefile (e.g. 1.5 times the installed RAM) does not cause a problem and eliminates the need to fuss over how large to make it.

--

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by DosCervezas

Some good info on Paging Files here-->>[color=blue]http://www.theeldergeek.com/paging_file.htm[/color]

There are 7 sections all together so be sure to click on the links at the bottom of the first article I linked to.

Thanks Dos, I found that article quite enlightening. And thanks to all who offered advice. Seems XP isn't the "set and forget" OS most folks think it is.

[Vikingod]

That is a very good article, I was looking for it the other day, but couldn't find it.

[franguinho]

Originally Posted by XXwabbit

I've read somewhere that you don't have to have one. They said that you'll know if you need it on. I have mine off with no probs yet.

i'd still have at least 512mb-1 gig there just in case ya need it

[XXwabbit]

Ya, after further reading I decided to make a 5 gig partition on the slave drive. Thanks guys for all the input in this thread. Learned some more about this somewhat confusing topic. Confusing, as in "Why M$, couldn't you make it a little more simpler?".

[PangingJr]

XP's installation gives you Typical setting, that’s simple enough! if you used or continue to use the default settings.

[No_Style]

Visit this site and click on the links on the bottom about page files. Great read. I personally leave the pagefile size to the default, seeing how MS already specifies the proper size for it and it will not grow or shrink.