dets 45.23 vs dets 51.75 IQ and shadows...

shuki · Sep 13, 2003, 08:19 PM

45.23

51.75

shuki · Sep 13, 2003, 08:20 PM

45.23

51.75

ummm, if you can't do ps 2.0 just cast a spotlight on it??

**MIG-31** · Sep 13, 2003, 08:22 PM

to me the 45.23 shadows look better,is this a sign of the new dets being a improvement.

and in particular the lighting in the second image!!!!!

shuki · Sep 13, 2003, 08:23 PM

45.23

51.75

notice how much lighter the new 51.75 are vs. the 45.23 ??

shuki · Sep 13, 2003, 08:24 PM

45.23

51.75

alt tabbing between these two images shows heavy blurring on the left side of foremost structure as well as the black and yellow poles. IQ definitely lower than 45.23.

shuki · Sep 13, 2003, 08:26 PM

45.23

51.75

completely different shadows and image. overhaul.

shuki · Sep 13, 2003, 08:27 PM

in conclusion, I know if I owned an FX series card no way in the world I'd replace my 45.23 drivers with any det 50's coming out...

Vengeance · Sep 13, 2003, 09:22 PM

Where can we get this benchmark at shuki?

~~craig588~~ · Sep 13, 2003, 09:25 PM

Its just Zardons screens posted in the forum. I asked him the same thing.

studbagel9 · Sep 13, 2003, 09:45 PM

Am I the only one who doesn't see the difference, maybe if you edited the pictures to point out specific areas where there is a difference I could see them better.

Adagio · Sep 13, 2003, 10:24 PM

This is so damn silly. nVidia has to cheat again with their drivers to get better scores in another Benchmark (here: Aquamark 3).

AshG · Sep 13, 2003, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vengeance
Where can we get this benchmark at shuki?

At midnight Sept. 15, this link will give it to you. Bookmark it and send it to your friends!

DaSnIpE · Sep 13, 2003, 11:23 PM

So every new game has to optimize for NV3X and DX9, that sucks for developpers, lol

Warpy · Sep 14, 2003, 12:56 AM

Well I own a FX5900 and on the 15th I will be sure to post all my findings.
Once the 50 dets are released it may be good idea to have threads dedicated to certain apps.... like 3dmark03, GL access, Aquamark etc?

Anywayz cheers Zardon for the snapshots

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 14, 2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaSnIpE
So every new game has to optimize for NV3X and DX9, that sucks for developpers, lol

yea that way there games can be playable on all the major card brands .... But in many cases it's so that game can be played @ all ... who could enjoy doom 3 at 9-16 fps lol

sad thing is those optimizations cut IQ and effects ...

why spend top dollar for a top dog video card for them to have to cut the game down to even run on your hardware...

Not to mention certain companies are optimizing their drivers for threw games 2 with the same effects.. Loss of IQ and a massive loss of special effects

ZoinKs! · Sep 14, 2003, 03:00 AM

So have you done any tests to be sure no funny business is going on with the screenshots. After all, Gabe Newell mentioned something about drivers that'd detect a screenshot being taken, and then giving the screenshot higher image quality.

Thanks to nVidia, we can't take anything at face value anymore. Gotta investigate everything....

~~Crash Override~~ · Sep 14, 2003, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZoinKs!
So have you done any tests to be sure no funny business is going on with the screenshots. After all, Gabe Newell mentioned something about drivers that'd detect a screenshot being taken, and then giving the screenshot higher image quality.

Thanks to nVidia, we can't take anything at face value anymore. Gotta investigate everything....

even if funny business is going on the screenshots still show a loss in detail between the 4x.xx and 5x.xx lines of nVidia drivers.

ATi pushes for image quality first and performance second and still manages to smoke nVidia.

This is a really sad day for nVidia users

~~HawK~~ · Sep 14, 2003, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crash Override

ATi pushes for image quality first and performance second and still manages to smoke nVidia.

This is a really sad day for nVidia users

Yes it is, but also one that was bound to happen.
And a lesson for ATI, listen to the people who do the actual designing and work, they tell you what can be done or not can be done, and not the "white collar's" they only care about one thing: themselves

Kgentatszu] · Sep 14, 2003, 06:35 AM

could this be another BUG??? i think NV would say that...who knows?? ~LOL

Vampyromaniac · Sep 14, 2003, 06:37 AM

when I look at the textures in 51.75 I feel like I need glasses

shuki · Sep 14, 2003, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZoinKs!
So have you done any tests to be sure no funny business is going on with the screenshots. After all, Gabe Newell mentioned something about drivers that'd detect a screenshot being taken, and then giving the screenshot higher image quality.

Thanks to nVidia, we can't take anything at face value anymore. Gotta investigate everything....

I was wondering that too! or maybe the 51.75 were only "optimized" for HL2 with the screenshots. If in fact these are cranked up screenshots then the IQ is even scarier (sp?) that it is above.... yikes.

and in my opinion, its not only another sad day for nvidia owners but for the entire gaming community. Nvidia was/is a pillar in this industry and the standards and way of business that she has taken for the past six months or so (or at least since the FX line of cards has come out) has really hurt the community and industry. And by being a lesser competitor I also feel it makes it that much easier for the big man on the block ATI atm) to relax a bit which none of us want.... I just think Nvidia going the way they are going is bad for all of us

BWX · Sep 14, 2003, 08:54 AM

51.75 drivers look like crap. What a shame.

Look at the top picture/ buggy on left of picture half way down on the screen- No shadow at all on the 45.23, hmm- either they were cheating with that one ot they are cheating so much with the 51.75, they have enough performance to "allow" the shadow to be rendered. What BS.

Now look at the bottom screenshot.

on the 51.75 there is a big shadow on the bottom of the screen, about an inch long, and one above it and to the right a little- where is it on the 45.23? Hmmm- maybe it isn't there at all on the actual benchmark, and the Nvidia drivers throw it in w/ the screencapture.

It also looks like the 51.75's have aniso off compared to the 45's- I'm sure the settings are the same, but the textures on the 51's look bland and blurry- if not washed out with a big "spotlight" out of nowhere. Maybe all these changes are just for the benchmark though or maybe they are only seen through screencaptures- optimized for every frame- who knows.

MiniMizer · Sep 14, 2003, 12:29 PM

hey guys, I'm not sure this is the proper place for this post, but I couldn't find anything more appropriate.
Anyway, I read the AquaMark 3 preview and even while I was looking at the flash I noticed that the IQ of the Radeon card was suprisingly low, very similar to the IQ demonstrated by the 51 drivers.
So I downloaded the targa screenshots for the radeon card, and the screenshots in that file show the exact same problems as are shown in the screenshots of the 51 driver (i.e. spotlight, wrong shadows, low IQ etc)..
Whats up with that?

Vengeance · Sep 14, 2003, 12:36 PM

He has a point

shuki · Sep 14, 2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MiniMizer
So I downloaded the targa screenshots for the radeon card, and the screenshots in that file show the exact same problems as are shown in the screenshots of the 51 driver (i.e. spotlight, wrong shadows, low IQ etc)..
Whats up with that?

I too downloaded them all

I think that the spotlight is supposed to be there just in the 45.23's it just is not! what are the wrong shadows? and what is low IQ? I mean compared to what? or are you just saying the screens just look "bad" ?? If so, I'd have to disagree. I think the screenshots look GREAT! Honestly, the graphics and IQ of each set of drivers used are good!! Just some are better than others and the purpose of this thread is to show that IMO, nvidia drivers are going backwards not forward....

MiniMizer · Sep 14, 2003, 12:59 PM

the screenshots from the Catalyst 3.7 are identical to the screenshots from the Detonator 51.75 (except the frame rates), just compare them and see.
The IQ of the catalyst 3.7 looks simply horrible in comparison to the 45.23, and identical in comparison to the 51.75, just look at the flash presentation and you'll see that the textures are very blurred when using the 3.7 - which doesn't make sense at all, since ATi has superior IQ...

shuki · Sep 14, 2003, 01:46 PM

No way the IQ in the 5175 and the cat 3.7 are identical.. I'll post up a few side by sides if you'd like...

shuki · Sep 14, 2003, 02:07 PM

OK done. thread is here

MiniMizer · Sep 14, 2003, 02:42 PM

thanks a lot for posting those screenshots, the differences are much clearer now.
My confusion resulted from looking at the area right beneath the ship (frame 1500), which IMO looks much clearer in the 45.23 than it does in the 51.75 and Cat 3.7.

Balderdash · Sep 15, 2003, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shuki
No way the IQ in the 5175 and the cat 3.7 are identical.. I'll post up a few side by sides if you'd like...

They are not identical... I just posted in the 3.7 vs 5175 thread about that. But I saw this here so I figured it needed mentioning. The 5000 screen/scene has 3 things missing in the 3.7 version, most notably the entire support beam in the bottom right corner of the screen. the 3.7 shows nothing but a big huge black area with nothing in it and the 5175 shows the beam, like the 4523 does.

However, the shadows under the ships (on the ground) are missing on the 4523 but they are shown on the 5175 and the 3.7's.

I'm starting to think that the 5175 shows a lot more details than both of the other two drivers. Especially when you zoom in on the right front fender of the ship flying towards us in the 5000 scene - only the 5175 shows this thing to be a logo, not a streak of rust.

Even if the other two drivers seem nicer and brighter at first. If they brighten up the 5175's I think they might be on to something...

Sep 13, 2003, 08:19 PM	#1
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	dets 45.23 vs dets 51.75 IQ and shadows... 45.23 51.75

Sep 13, 2003, 08:22 PM	#3
MIG-31 HardwareHeaven News Mod Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Nottingham,UK Posts: 56,864 Rep Power: 471 System Specs	to me the 45.23 shadows look better,is this a sign of the new dets being a improvement. and in particular the lighting in the second image!!!!! __________________ Please Post Your News Submissions Here Last edited by MIG-31; Sep 13, 2003 at 08:42 PM.

Sep 13, 2003, 09:22 PM	#8
Vengeance DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Fort Worth TX Posts: 643 Rep Power: 0	Where can we get this benchmark at shuki? __________________ [color=red]Rage3D Super Moderator[/color] [color=red]BFG 6800 GT [/color]

Sep 13, 2003, 09:45 PM	#10
studbagel9 Rolling the Hard Six Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lock Haven, PA Posts: 767 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Am I the only one who doesn't see the difference, maybe if you edited the pictures to point out specific areas where there is a difference I could see them better. __________________

Sep 13, 2003, 10:24 PM	#11
Adagio DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 70 Rep Power: 0	This is so damn silly. nVidia has to cheat again with their drivers to get better scores in another Benchmark (here: Aquamark 3). __________________ My software never has bugs. It just develops random features. ° Adagios hard- and softwareconfiguration ° 3DFusion - All news around ATi, Matrox, nVidia and more!

Sep 13, 2003, 08:20 PM	Thread Starter #2
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	45.23 51.75 ummm, if you can't do ps 2.0 just cast a spotlight on it??

Sep 13, 2003, 08:23 PM	Thread Starter #4
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	45.23 51.75 notice how much lighter the new 51.75 are vs. the 45.23 ??

Sep 13, 2003, 08:24 PM	Thread Starter #5
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	45.23 51.75 alt tabbing between these two images shows heavy blurring on the left side of foremost structure as well as the black and yellow poles. IQ definitely lower than 45.23.

Sep 13, 2003, 08:26 PM	Thread Starter #6
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	45.23 51.75 completely different shadows and image. overhaul.

Sep 13, 2003, 08:27 PM	Thread Starter #7
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	in conclusion, I know if I owned an FX series card no way in the world I'd replace my 45.23 drivers with any det 50's coming out...

Sep 13, 2003, 09:25 PM	#9
~~craig588~~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In clothing Posts: 3,510 Rep Power: 0	Its just Zardons screens posted in the forum. I asked him the same thing.

Sep 13, 2003, 11:23 PM	#13
DaSnIpE Driverage Snipe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Montreal, Canada or NYC, USA Posts: 372 Rep Power: 0	So every new game has to optimize for NV3X and DX9, that sucks for developpers, lol __________________ Antec SX1030 Case - Enermax 431 W Whisper PS - 4 Case Fans -ThermalRight AX-7 With Panaflo Ultra Fan - Sb Audigy / Logitech Z-560 Speakers / Sennheiser HD497 Headphones WD 80GB 7200 rpm HD - Samsung SyncMaster 955DF - LG 16x10x40x Burner / Pionner 16x Slot DVD View my rig http://nl.dodhq.net/Rig/

Sep 14, 2003, 12:56 AM	#14
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	Well I own a FX5900 and on the 15th I will be sure to post all my findings. Once the 50 dets are released it may be good idea to have threads dedicated to certain apps.... like 3dmark03, GL access, Aquamark etc? Anywayz cheers Zardon for the snapshots __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Sep 14, 2003, 03:00 AM	#16
ZoinKs! DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 9 Rep Power: 0	So have you done any tests to be sure no funny business is going on with the screenshots. After all, Gabe Newell mentioned something about drivers that'd detect a screenshot being taken, and then giving the screenshot higher image quality. Thanks to nVidia, we can't take anything at face value anymore. Gotta investigate everything....

Sep 14, 2003, 06:35 AM	#19
Kgentatszu] DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 1,802 Rep Power: 0	i wonder.... could this be another BUG??? i think NV would say that...who knows?? ~LOL

Sep 14, 2003, 06:37 AM	#20
Vampyromaniac confutatis maledictis Join Date: May 2002 Location: somewhere dark Posts: 5,974 Rep Power: 77 System Specs	when I look at the textures in 51.75 I feel like I need glasses __________________ *Digitalis 3.3* Athlon 64 3000 // ASUS K8V SE Deluxe // 1024MB PC3200 (2-2-2-10 1T) ATI All-In-Wonder 9700 Pro // 20" Dell 2005FPW (DVI) M-Audio Revo 7.1 + Philips Acoustic Edge // Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 320/16 Western Digital WD3200KS + 120/8 Seagate 7200.7 NEC ND-3550A 16x DVD±RW + Lite-On 52x24x CD-RW Antec Sonata case // 480W Antec TruePower personal bests \|\| Aq'3: 46796 \| 3D'01: 20461 \| 3D'03: 6336 \| 3D'05: 2677 \| PC'04: 4605 \| PC'02: 7691,9092,1250

Sep 14, 2003, 08:54 AM	#22
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	51.75 drivers look like crap. What a shame. Look at the top picture/ buggy on left of picture half way down on the screen- No shadow at all on the 45.23, hmm- either they were cheating with that one ot they are cheating so much with the 51.75, they have enough performance to "allow" the shadow to be rendered. What BS. Now look at the bottom screenshot. on the 51.75 there is a big shadow on the bottom of the screen, about an inch long, and one above it and to the right a little- where is it on the 45.23? Hmmm- maybe it isn't there at all on the actual benchmark, and the Nvidia drivers throw it in w/ the screencapture. It also looks like the 51.75's have aniso off compared to the 45's- I'm sure the settings are the same, but the textures on the 51's look bland and blurry- if not washed out with a big "spotlight" out of nowhere. Maybe all these changes are just for the benchmark though or maybe they are only seen through screencaptures- optimized for every frame- who knows. Last edited by BWX; Sep 14, 2003 at 09:19 AM.

Sep 14, 2003, 12:29 PM	#23
MiniMizer DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	hey guys, I'm not sure this is the proper place for this post, but I couldn't find anything more appropriate. Anyway, I read the AquaMark 3 preview and even while I was looking at the flash I noticed that the IQ of the Radeon card was suprisingly low, very similar to the IQ demonstrated by the 51 drivers. So I downloaded the targa screenshots for the radeon card, and the screenshots in that file show the exact same problems as are shown in the screenshots of the 51 driver (i.e. spotlight, wrong shadows, low IQ etc).. Whats up with that?

Sep 14, 2003, 12:36 PM	#24
Vengeance DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Fort Worth TX Posts: 643 Rep Power: 0	He has a point __________________ [color=red]Rage3D Super Moderator[/color] [color=red]BFG 6800 GT [/color]

Sep 14, 2003, 12:59 PM	#26
MiniMizer DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	the screenshots from the Catalyst 3.7 are identical to the screenshots from the Detonator 51.75 (except the frame rates), just compare them and see. The IQ of the catalyst 3.7 looks simply horrible in comparison to the 45.23, and identical in comparison to the 51.75, just look at the flash presentation and you'll see that the textures are very blurred when using the 3.7 - which doesn't make sense at all, since ATi has superior IQ...

Sep 14, 2003, 01:46 PM	Thread Starter #27
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	No way the IQ in the 5175 and the cat 3.7 are identical.. I'll post up a few side by sides if you'd like...

Sep 14, 2003, 02:07 PM	Thread Starter #28
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	OK done. thread is here

Sep 14, 2003, 02:42 PM	#29
MiniMizer DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	thanks a lot for posting those screenshots, the differences are much clearer now. My confusion resulted from looking at the area right beneath the ship (frame 1500), which IMO looks much clearer in the 45.23 than it does in the 51.75 and Cat 3.7.