Help with R8500 + counter strike

Mogar · Feb 14, 2003, 07:29 PM

Hello, I posted this thread on another section, but this has new info.

Already went to www.rage3d.com, discuss.futuremark.com and another hardware foruns, and no one know what is happening.

My brother has a Radeon 8500 64Mb Oem, built by Ati, with 3.3 ns memory and original clocks are 250/275.

Systems tested:

1st- P3 1ghz, 512mb sdram, Asus p3v4x (via apollo pro 133a chipset with updated bios), Genius sound maker, surecom Lan card. Using 4-in-1 drivers 4.30 (don't remember correctly the version tested)

2nd- P4 1.7ghz, Intel D850GB mobo (i850 chipset, tested with original bios and p18 bios ), 2 sticks of PC800 rdram in dual channel, Genius sound maker, surecom Lan card (the 2 latest are the same than the 1st system). Latest intel application acelerator and motherboard inf drivers.

OS tested (on both machines, from a fresh install for both machines): Windows XP Pro with and without SP1, Windows 98 SE with the latest updates

No background programs unless the needed for windows work.

Drivers tested: Catalyst 2.2 ; 2.3 ; 2.4; 2.5 and 3.0 updated. The motherboard drivers were the latest avaliable at the time that I tested the catalyst (so, for the 2.2 version I probably wasn't with the latest avaliable now).

Bios tested (video) : The original that came with the card, and the 1009 retail bios avaliable in Omegacorner.

Half-life version: 1.1.1.0 retail , CS version : 1.5 ( full, not update). Downloaded again to make sure that it was uncorrupted.

Video settings: OpenGL, 1024x768 (working in 32 bit by adding -32bpp to command line), Anisotropic filtering, Anti Aliasing, truform and vsync disabled in drivers, mip map and texture details set to "quality". Every thing turned on in smartgart (tried also with and without fast writes)

Changed the following variables in the game: fps_max 100; ati_npatch 0; ati_subdiv 0.

Problem:

Low performance, specially in open maps like de_aztec and de_dust 2. Sometimes even without enemies the fps rate goes to 60 fps, and when facing 2 enemies, frame rate goes down to 40 fps (in aztec). That happens in both systems, with very little performance change.

That's not only me, I know some people that have the same issues, and didn't find a fix. At least here in Brazil, the CS players are avoiding to buy the R8500 because this issue, but there is no much info about this. Some cards works perfectly, some not, even 128mb card has this problem.

Tested a Geforce SDR on the first system, and got aprox. the same performance, that should have not happened. Tested also a Geforce 2 PRO on the first system (p3), and it got much better performance than the ATI Radeon 8500 (note that I tested them before I tested the R8500)..

Tested the p4 system without the sound board, and the performance is the same.

The biggest problem is that the visual sensation is if the frames per second are below than what the fps counter is showing, and it is very bad for playing this game (aiming becomes very difficult). This is not a net bandwidth problem, since the fps are the same when playing on a 100mbit Lan.

Performance in other games/benchmarks:

8000 marks on 3dmark 2001 se for the 2nd system (p4), and 6000 for the 1st system (p3). Performance is normal in UT 2003 and Quake 3 (don't have the numbers now, but compared with a similar system). [new info] Run 3dmark03 with the catalyst 3.0 and got around 1000 points, what looks like normal for this card.

Both systems don't have any performance problem. Checked with Sisoftware Sandra with the burnin tests, and got normal results in both systems for performance and stability.

Here are screen shots of the performance slowdown (sorry for the quality of the pic, but otherwise the pic would be too big to download).

Mogar · Feb 16, 2003, 12:52 AM

about 4 months without responses in forums...........

well, if this card was deffective it would have performance problems with another games and benchmarks. Since the problem is only with counter-strike I can't return the card to the store (they will say that it is working perfectly, what is true for anything but cs). So I think that the only solution is to sell this card to someone that don't play counter-strike and go back to Nvidia.......

Mogar · Feb 16, 2003, 07:54 AM

Here is a thread about this issue @ rage3d : http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...readid=33647912

2SiNiSteR2 · Feb 16, 2003, 05:58 PM

Disable vertical sync.

Had this problem until I unlocked, the refreshrate then disabled "Wait for vertical refresh".
Problem went away.

With your rig you should easily reach 99,9fps (as i do) and never drops below that no more.

I have a:

- Epox 8K3A+
- XP1700+@1838 (AROGA)
- Club-3D 8500 285/281 (default 275/275)
- 512Mb Samsung (TCB) PC2700
- Hercules Digifire 7.1 (Until today had a SB-Live Platinum with LiveDrive II)
- 80Gb Maxtor 7200rpm HD & 40Gb IBM 7200rpm
- 3Com 10/100 NIC (3C905B-TX)
- H2O Cooled by Jagged-Edge Cooling-Block, overseas pump (220V), aquacoil with baybus controledd 120mm Papst
12V@approx.6,2V standaard 3/4"tubing.

Now I have a 19"TFT wich is at 60Hz but never had this problem even without fixing the refreshrate.
So I think the trick is to disable "Wait for vertical refresh"

Hope this helps,...

GrtZ from another CS addict

Mogar · Feb 16, 2003, 09:59 PM

If you take a look on the original post, you will see that I've already did that, and a lot of other things, anyway, with a geforce 2 pro I can use vsync with the monitor at 85Hz and only have performance drops when there are smoke granades.

2SiNiSteR2 · Feb 16, 2003, 10:19 PM

This is really weird.

My son's PC is a measely p3-800 with an old tnt2 (viper770-ultra) and he's got about 60-70fps all the time.
My wife's PC is an Athlon (500@600Mhz) Slot-A on Abit KA7-100 with an asus 6800 deluxe (Geforce1-DDR) and she's got about 70fps.

But it seems like your problem is only related to CS.
Maybe u can post your *.cfg , as an CS addict maybe I can help out.... and compare yours to mine.

If you play in Direct3D mode are the frames then up to expectations or what ???

ps. forgive my bad english, 4 it's not my native language

Hope we can help you out here.

Mogar · Feb 17, 2003, 02:20 AM

I tested this radeon on a 3rd system (my computer).

It's a Athlon XP 1800+, abit kr7a (with updated bios) and 256 mb pc2700 ram at 266mhz and agressive timings, sb audigy and the same Lan card from the other computers. Just uninstalled my Geforce 2 pro by add/remove programs, changed the card and installed catalyst 3.1 and control panel.

Results, 1100 points in 3dmark03 (couldn't post due to heavy traffic), and counter-strike run much much better. There were slowdowns, but at most 70 fps, and not 40 like on the P4.

But this was before I installed the refresh rate fix (refresh fix 0.9.9.7). After that the performance was slower, got more slowdowns in CS, and now opengl programs that don't run at the same resolution as the desktop don't work in full screen (it shows at smaller size, with the windows desktop in the background).

Another issue that I noted is that Fifa 2003 stopped running after that, saying that this game needs a 3d accelerator.

Now I will search for another refresh rate fix, and see what happens.

2SiNiSteR2 · Feb 17, 2003, 10:36 PM

Mogar...

Did you already try direct3d mode, just to compare the results.
Are you gettin better fps in direct3d mode ?

And the directx error (not having a 3d accelerator)....
Got it also the 1st time i installed the catalyst 3.1 drivers.
After installation it asked for a reboot (yes you can choos later) I didn't.
After that all "DirectX Features" in DXDIAG (display1) where disabled, could do a DirectDraw test succesfully though.

I reinstalled the cat3.1 drivers and rebooted problems where gone after that.

Mogar · Feb 18, 2003, 02:44 AM

The fifa 2003 bug is solved now. After I flashed the video card bios to the retail version, it thinks that there is a second monitor (but only one is plugged, and the tv-out is free and the dvi out is without anything too).

Well, tested counter-strike in this 3rd system, and there were NO slowdowns at all ! Of course the performance drops a bit if there are smoke granade and too many enemies, but the performance is much much better than in the other two.

And note that I didn't did a fresh install, just uninstalled my geforce's detonator and without reformat simply installed catalyst 3.1.

Now I can even run with vsync and AF with wonderfull performance.

Now I don't know if the cs bug was fixed on catalyst 3.1, because I only tested this version on this system, and not in the other two (where I tested every catalyst since 2.1 to 3.0 like I said in the original post), but since almost all previous catalyst gave the same performance in that two systems (the p3 and p4), I don't believe that it is a driver related problem.

I've heard other radeon users with the same motherboard (abit kr7a) that I use without problems. Now I think that this card (or drivers) has a specific bug with this game and the mobo that I tested before.

Any opinions ?

Mogar · Feb 18, 2003, 04:06 AM

Just one info. I've tried cs using directx before switching the card to my computer, and in directx the performance was even worse

2SiNiSteR2 · Feb 18, 2003, 09:20 AM

It isn't a driver related problem....

I tried various drivers since april 2002 and never did the drivers slowdown the performance.

As I already mentioned with your setup cs shouldn't drop below 90 fps.

With my setup it doesn't ever drop below 98fps, it's almost constanly between 99fps -99.9fps

So your problem isn't with your specs or drivers.
I think you can gain more performance by tweaking your CS config file.

As you already said you've had this slowdown only with CS.

But anyway I hope you enjoy CS like i do

Mystik · Feb 18, 2003, 10:24 AM

He shouldn't need to tweak his cs to get it to 99.9fps speeds with his kind
of machine.

i've never had any problem with CS or ATi's drivers.. and i'm even talking
about back when the Rage Pro came out -- hell, i never even had problems
running UT with the Rage Pro.

There's something up with your installation -- if it really bothers you to
the point where you feel like shoving your hand in your own stomach, try
doing a clean install of winxp.

Also, don't expect the HL engine to scale with your computer rig.. the coding
is very old (i mean, they cap fps at 99.9..).. especially CS itself, it has badly
done maps and uses probably more polys than a normal level in Half-Life
itself, not to mention it's crappy coding.

And I say this because they screwed up the hitboxes.
how do you screw up hitboxes? i mean, really.

but anyway, that's my suggestion. If you can't figure out what's going on,
then just do a clean install of WinXP SP1.

Mogar · Feb 18, 2003, 10:47 PM

I agree that there is not a reason to tweak.

I used the same config.cfg in the p4 and in the athlon systems, as well the same bios configuratios (when avaliable) and driver configurations.

I still don´t know why in the p4, the performance was so low and in the athlon the performance is perfect. And take in count that in the athlon I didn't even did a fresh install, like I did 3 times with the p4.

And in the Athlon I'm using a old set of via drivers, and the p4 I tested even with the latest. And when I tested the geforce 2 on the p4, by only uninstalling the Ati drivers and installing the detonators, it was performing great in counter-strike

Looks like this board has a bug with that particular setups (the p3 and the p4) and counter strike. Look that I spent about 4 months surfing on the internet searching a solution for that, and getting it performing well in the athlon was even easier than with detonator drivers.

I would like that the Ati crew take a look on that, and if they ask for any test, I will be glad to help finding what's the problem....

Cyan007 · Feb 19, 2003, 05:23 PM

The hitboxes aren't screwed up in CS... it's just that the shooting style is... well.. "unique"

Mystik · Feb 19, 2003, 06:46 PM

The hitboxes *are* screwed up.

Ever release that comes out, I do testing on what has changed
and if they've even fixed anything.

Feb 14, 2003, 07:29 PM	#1
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	Help with R8500 + counter strike Hello, I posted this thread on another section, but this has new info. Already went to www.rage3d.com, discuss.futuremark.com and another hardware foruns, and no one know what is happening. My brother has a Radeon 8500 64Mb Oem, built by Ati, with 3.3 ns memory and original clocks are 250/275. Systems tested: 1st- P3 1ghz, 512mb sdram, Asus p3v4x (via apollo pro 133a chipset with updated bios), Genius sound maker, surecom Lan card. Using 4-in-1 drivers 4.30 (don't remember correctly the version tested) 2nd- P4 1.7ghz, Intel D850GB mobo (i850 chipset, tested with original bios and p18 bios ), 2 sticks of PC800 rdram in dual channel, Genius sound maker, surecom Lan card (the 2 latest are the same than the 1st system). Latest intel application acelerator and motherboard inf drivers. OS tested (on both machines, from a fresh install for both machines): Windows XP Pro with and without SP1, Windows 98 SE with the latest updates No background programs unless the needed for windows work. Drivers tested: Catalyst 2.2 ; 2.3 ; 2.4; 2.5 and 3.0 updated. The motherboard drivers were the latest avaliable at the time that I tested the catalyst (so, for the 2.2 version I probably wasn't with the latest avaliable now). Bios tested (video) : The original that came with the card, and the 1009 retail bios avaliable in Omegacorner. Half-life version: 1.1.1.0 retail , CS version : 1.5 ( full, not update). Downloaded again to make sure that it was uncorrupted. Video settings: OpenGL, 1024x768 (working in 32 bit by adding -32bpp to command line), Anisotropic filtering, Anti Aliasing, truform and vsync disabled in drivers, mip map and texture details set to "quality". Every thing turned on in smartgart (tried also with and without fast writes) Changed the following variables in the game: fps_max 100; ati_npatch 0; ati_subdiv 0. Problem: Low performance, specially in open maps like de_aztec and de_dust 2. Sometimes even without enemies the fps rate goes to 60 fps, and when facing 2 enemies, frame rate goes down to 40 fps (in aztec). That happens in both systems, with very little performance change. That's not only me, I know some people that have the same issues, and didn't find a fix. At least here in Brazil, the CS players are avoiding to buy the R8500 because this issue, but there is no much info about this. Some cards works perfectly, some not, even 128mb card has this problem. Tested a Geforce SDR on the first system, and got aprox. the same performance, that should have not happened. Tested also a Geforce 2 PRO on the first system (p3), and it got much better performance than the ATI Radeon 8500 (note that I tested them before I tested the R8500).. Tested the p4 system without the sound board, and the performance is the same. The biggest problem is that the visual sensation is if the frames per second are below than what the fps counter is showing, and it is very bad for playing this game (aiming becomes very difficult). This is not a net bandwidth problem, since the fps are the same when playing on a 100mbit Lan. Performance in other games/benchmarks: 8000 marks on 3dmark 2001 se for the 2nd system (p4), and 6000 for the 1st system (p3). Performance is normal in UT 2003 and Quake 3 (don't have the numbers now, but compared with a similar system). [new info] Run 3dmark03 with the catalyst 3.0 and got around 1000 points, what looks like normal for this card. Both systems don't have any performance problem. Checked with Sisoftware Sandra with the burnin tests, and got normal results in both systems for performance and stability. Here are screen shots of the performance slowdown (sorry for the quality of the pic, but otherwise the pic would be too big to download).

Feb 16, 2003, 10:19 PM	#6
2SiNiSteR2 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Golland Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	This is really weird. My son's PC is a measely p3-800 with an old tnt2 (viper770-ultra) and he's got about 60-70fps all the time. My wife's PC is an Athlon (500@600Mhz) Slot-A on Abit KA7-100 with an asus 6800 deluxe (Geforce1-DDR) and she's got about 70fps. But it seems like your problem is only related to CS. Maybe u can post your .cfg , as an CS addict maybe I can help out.... and compare yours to mine. If you play in Direct3D mode are the frames then up to expectations or what ??? ps. forgive my bad english, 4 it's not my native language Hope we can help you out here. __________________ Abit NF7-S rev 2.0 XP2500+@202FSB (H2O) Antec True Power 550W Twinmos 2512Mb Hercules 9800SE AIW Samsung SATA 160 Gb Hd 7200rpm & Maxtor D10 200Gb 7200rpm Thermaltake v1000PD-A LanFire. AGNeovo S-19 TFT

Feb 17, 2003, 10:36 PM	#8
2SiNiSteR2 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Golland Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	Mogar... Did you already try direct3d mode, just to compare the results. Are you gettin better fps in direct3d mode ? And the directx error (not having a 3d accelerator).... Got it also the 1st time i installed the catalyst 3.1 drivers. After installation it asked for a reboot (yes you can choos later) I didn't. After that all "DirectX Features" in DXDIAG (display1) where disabled, could do a DirectDraw test succesfully though. I reinstalled the cat3.1 drivers and rebooted problems where gone after that. __________________ Abit NF7-S rev 2.0 XP2500+@202FSB (H2O) Antec True Power 550W Twinmos 2*512Mb Hercules 9800SE AIW Samsung SATA 160 Gb Hd 7200rpm & Maxtor D10 200Gb 7200rpm Thermaltake v1000PD-A LanFire. AGNeovo S-19 TFT

Feb 18, 2003, 09:20 AM	#11
2SiNiSteR2 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Golland Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	It isn't a driver related problem.... I tried various drivers since april 2002 and never did the drivers slowdown the performance. As I already mentioned with your setup cs shouldn't drop below 90 fps. With my setup it doesn't ever drop below 98fps, it's almost constanly between 99fps -99.9fps So your problem isn't with your specs or drivers. I think you can gain more performance by tweaking your CS config file. As you already said you've had this slowdown only with CS. But anyway I hope you enjoy CS like i do __________________ Abit NF7-S rev 2.0 XP2500+@202FSB (H2O) Antec True Power 550W Twinmos 2*512Mb Hercules 9800SE AIW Samsung SATA 160 Gb Hd 7200rpm & Maxtor D10 200Gb 7200rpm Thermaltake v1000PD-A LanFire. AGNeovo S-19 TFT

Feb 18, 2003, 10:24 AM	#12
Mystik i'm an errand. Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 237 Rep Power: 0	He shouldn't need to tweak his cs to get it to 99.9fps speeds with his kind of machine. i've never had any problem with CS or ATi's drivers.. and i'm even talking about back when the Rage Pro came out -- hell, i never even had problems running UT with the Rage Pro. There's something up with your installation -- if it really bothers you to the point where you feel like shoving your hand in your own stomach, try doing a clean install of winxp. Also, don't expect the HL engine to scale with your computer rig.. the coding is very old (i mean, they cap fps at 99.9..).. especially CS itself, it has badly done maps and uses probably more polys than a normal level in Half-Life itself, not to mention it's crappy coding. And I say this because they screwed up the hitboxes. how do you screw up hitboxes? i mean, really. but anyway, that's my suggestion. If you can't figure out what's going on, then just do a clean install of WinXP SP1. __________________ For as long as the sun shines, there will always be darkness. -- me.

Feb 16, 2003, 12:52 AM	Thread Starter #2
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	about 4 months without responses in forums........... well, if this card was deffective it would have performance problems with another games and benchmarks. Since the problem is only with counter-strike I can't return the card to the store (they will say that it is working perfectly, what is true for anything but cs). So I think that the only solution is to sell this card to someone that don't play counter-strike and go back to Nvidia.......

Feb 16, 2003, 07:54 AM	Thread Starter #3
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	Here is a thread about this issue @ rage3d : http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...readid=33647912

Feb 16, 2003, 05:58 PM	#4
2SiNiSteR2 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Golland Posts: 23 Rep Power: 0	Disable vertical sync. Had this problem until I unlocked, the refreshrate then disabled "Wait for vertical refresh". Problem went away. With your rig you should easily reach 99,9fps (as i do) and never drops below that no more. I have a: - Epox 8K3A+ - XP1700+@1838 (AROGA) - Club-3D 8500 285/281 (default 275/275) - 512Mb Samsung (TCB) PC2700 - Hercules Digifire 7.1 (Until today had a SB-Live Platinum with LiveDrive II) - 80Gb Maxtor 7200rpm HD & 40Gb IBM 7200rpm - 3Com 10/100 NIC (3C905B-TX) - H2O Cooled by Jagged-Edge Cooling-Block, overseas pump (220V), aquacoil with baybus controledd 120mm Papst 12V@approx.6,2V standaard 3/4"tubing. Now I have a 19"TFT wich is at 60Hz but never had this problem even without fixing the refreshrate. So I think the trick is to disable "Wait for vertical refresh" Hope this helps,... GrtZ from another CS addict

Feb 16, 2003, 09:59 PM	Thread Starter #5
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	If you take a look on the original post, you will see that I've already did that, and a lot of other things, anyway, with a geforce 2 pro I can use vsync with the monitor at 85Hz and only have performance drops when there are smoke granades.

Feb 17, 2003, 02:20 AM	Thread Starter #7
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	I tested this radeon on a 3rd system (my computer). It's a Athlon XP 1800+, abit kr7a (with updated bios) and 256 mb pc2700 ram at 266mhz and agressive timings, sb audigy and the same Lan card from the other computers. Just uninstalled my Geforce 2 pro by add/remove programs, changed the card and installed catalyst 3.1 and control panel. Results, 1100 points in 3dmark03 (couldn't post due to heavy traffic), and counter-strike run much much better. There were slowdowns, but at most 70 fps, and not 40 like on the P4. But this was before I installed the refresh rate fix (refresh fix 0.9.9.7). After that the performance was slower, got more slowdowns in CS, and now opengl programs that don't run at the same resolution as the desktop don't work in full screen (it shows at smaller size, with the windows desktop in the background). Another issue that I noted is that Fifa 2003 stopped running after that, saying that this game needs a 3d accelerator. Now I will search for another refresh rate fix, and see what happens.

Feb 18, 2003, 02:44 AM	Thread Starter #9
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	The fifa 2003 bug is solved now. After I flashed the video card bios to the retail version, it thinks that there is a second monitor (but only one is plugged, and the tv-out is free and the dvi out is without anything too). Well, tested counter-strike in this 3rd system, and there were NO slowdowns at all ! Of course the performance drops a bit if there are smoke granade and too many enemies, but the performance is much much better than in the other two. And note that I didn't did a fresh install, just uninstalled my geforce's detonator and without reformat simply installed catalyst 3.1. Now I can even run with vsync and AF with wonderfull performance. Now I don't know if the cs bug was fixed on catalyst 3.1, because I only tested this version on this system, and not in the other two (where I tested every catalyst since 2.1 to 3.0 like I said in the original post), but since almost all previous catalyst gave the same performance in that two systems (the p3 and p4), I don't believe that it is a driver related problem. I've heard other radeon users with the same motherboard (abit kr7a) that I use without problems. Now I think that this card (or drivers) has a specific bug with this game and the mobo that I tested before. Any opinions ?

Feb 18, 2003, 04:06 AM	Thread Starter #10
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	Just one info. I've tried cs using directx before switching the card to my computer, and in directx the performance was even worse

Feb 18, 2003, 10:47 PM	Thread Starter #13
Mogar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: São Paulo- SP Brazil Posts: 35 Rep Power: 0	I agree that there is not a reason to tweak. I used the same config.cfg in the p4 and in the athlon systems, as well the same bios configuratios (when avaliable) and driver configurations. I still don´t know why in the p4, the performance was so low and in the athlon the performance is perfect. And take in count that in the athlon I didn't even did a fresh install, like I did 3 times with the p4. And in the Athlon I'm using a old set of via drivers, and the p4 I tested even with the latest. And when I tested the geforce 2 on the p4, by only uninstalling the Ati drivers and installing the detonators, it was performing great in counter-strike Looks like this board has a bug with that particular setups (the p3 and the p4) and counter strike. Look that I spent about 4 months surfing on the internet searching a solution for that, and getting it performing well in the athlon was even easier than with detonator drivers. I would like that the Ati crew take a look on that, and if they ask for any test, I will be glad to help finding what's the problem....

Feb 19, 2003, 05:23 PM	#14
Cyan007 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Newport News, VA Posts: 212 Rep Power: 0	The hitboxes aren't screwed up in CS... it's just that the shooting style is... well.. "unique" __________________ Microsoft Windows XP Home SP2 Shuttle SN95G5 v3 AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Geil 1024MB PC3200 DDR400 (512x2) ATI AIW Radeon X800XT Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Seagate Barracude 500GB SATA

Feb 19, 2003, 06:46 PM	#15
Mystik i'm an errand. Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 237 Rep Power: 0	The hitboxes are screwed up. Ever release that comes out, I do testing on what has changed and if they've even fixed anything. __________________ For as long as the sun shines, there will always be darkness. -- me.