ISSUE: City of Heroes, Cat 4.12/Omega 4.12/Cat 5.1, and X800 XT PE

jaym · Jan 25, 2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

For issues PLEASE use the following format (one issue per post please)

1) Problem Name
2) System Configurations
3) Detailed Steps to Reproduce
4) Expected Behaviour

Well, I don't believe this to be issues with CCC and instead ATI's implementation of OpenGL or something else; but still wanted to provide the information so I am posting in the request format here so that hopefully CATALYST maker or another ATI rep could hopefully respond... a lot of hope there on my part I'm sure.

I'm at work right now, so can't post screenshots, if they'd help to show my two issues then I will post them when I get home. Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide. -- Jay

FIRST ISSUE:

1) Problem Name:
Pixel Popping (as explained here: http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/ssaa/index2.php)

2) System Configuration:

SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB (latest BIOS)
P4 3.4Ghz Extreme Edition CPU
2GB PC3200 Corsair RAM specified by motherboard
ATI X800 XT PE (Catalyst 5.1 w/CCC)
(and sometimes an nVidia 6800 Ultra (67.02) that doesn't have issue, but image quality is worse so I want my X800XTPE to work!!!)
3Ware PCI-X 64-bit/66Mhz SATA RAID Controller with 128mb Cache (latest firmware and drivers)
2x36GB Western Digital Raptor Drives in RAID0 for games
IBM GXP180 ATA100 Drive for Operating System
SB Live 2 Platinum (latest drivers)
Saitek Gamer KB (using latest Microsoft USB HID drivers)
Razer Diamondback Mouse (latest drivers)
Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2 (latest patches from MS Update)
Microsoft DirectX 9.0c
Absolutely no Spyware or Viruses, McAfee AV and MS Spyware Beta, confirmed with HiJackThis (I also don't use this computer for anything but games, no email or web browsing)

3) Detailed Steps to Reproduce:

Chose any settings you want via CCC (or via CP in non-CCC install or Omega drivers) -- personally I'm trying to run at 1280x1024x32x85Hz (forced refresh) and 4x AA, 4x AS, Vertical Sync ON... I have tried all possible settings (I think) of all of those items as well as AI, etc. No difference in issue.
Run City of Heroes
Play a character in any city with large buildings (even the starter zone)
Run around
Pay attention to the corner edges of the large buildings or any sharp angles on them, you'll notice BRIGHT WHITE lines and dots that come and go as you change angles (ie: Pixel Popping from the above reference article... they change between animations)
Pay attention to the roads, you will see seems in the road that exhibit the same Pixel Popping in some locations

4) Expected Behaviour:
NO Pixel Popping. This does NOT happen with my nVidia 6800 Ultra... but the image quality on the nVidia isn't nearly as vibrant and "deep" as on the ATI. I was amazed the first time I went into a sewer with the new ATI card and could actually perceive depth between the pipes on the ceiling. VERY NICE IMAGE... till I moved that is.

Then the flashing lines and dots got annoying REAL QUICK.

SECOND ISSUE:

1) Problem Name:
Detail Textures Flashing on/off

More Description: It looks like there is a layered texture on top of another one and the top layer disappears when moving. I couldn't find a description on the web of the problem, so hopefully I'm describing it adequately. One clear example is if there is a stain on the floor for example (dirt/blood/oil spill/etc.) and you move around, the stain will disappear and come back depending on what angle you are viewing from. There are also some wall segments that have another texture on top of them and they too disappear depending on angle.

2) System Configuration:

SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB (latest BIOS)
P4 3.4Ghz Extreme Edition CPU
2GB PC3200 Corsair RAM specified by motherboard
ATI X800 XT PE (Catalyst 5.1 w/CCC)
(and sometimes an nVidia 6800 Ultra (67.02) that doesn't have issue, but image quality is worse so I want my X800XTPE to work!!!)
3Ware PCI-X 64-bit/66Mhz SATA RAID Controller with 128mb Cache (latest firmware and drivers)
2x36GB Western Digital Raptor Drives in RAID0 for games
IBM GXP180 ATA100 Drive for Operating System
SB Live 2 Platinum (latest drivers)
Saitek Gamer KB (using latest Microsoft USB HID drivers)
Razer Diamondback Mouse (latest drivers)
Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2 (latest patches from MS Update)
Microsoft DirectX 9.0c
Absolutely no Spyware or Viruses, McAfee AV and MS Spyware Beta, confirmed with HiJackThis (I also don't use this computer for anything but games, no email or web browsing)

3) Detailed Steps to Reproduce:

Chose any settings you want via CCC (or via CP in non-CCC install or Omega drivers) -- personally I'm trying to run at 1280x1024x32x85Hz (forced refresh) and 4x AA, 4x AS, Vertical Sync ON... I have tried all possible settings (I think) of all of those items as well as AI, etc. No difference in issue.
Run City of Heroes
Two places to reproduce problem
First is a fixed location, but a higher level area so if you don't have a higher level (20 or higher I think) you won't be able to get to it. That place is in the Terra Volta zone (inside of Independence Port zone). Once you enter Terra Volta you can run jump over to the catwalk and run to the end of it, turn around and look back towards the entrance. You will see a wall underneath the platform where the entrance was, at the far left and right corners of the wall is a wall section that has what I'm calling a detail texture overlay on top of the normal wall texture. If you turn left and right, you'll see it disappear.
Second can be found with even a newbie character, but I can't give a specific location for you. The place I've most noticed it is in an indoor office building mission that has tile floors in some rooms. On the tile floors they may have stains on them. If you are looking at the stain and turn left or right or run around, you'll see the entire stain flash on and off. VERY annoying.

4) Expected Behaviour:
Detail Textures do not flash on and off and instead stay there the entire time no matter what angle you are viewing from. This does NOT happen with my nVidia 6800 Ultra.

GeneralClaymore · Jan 25, 2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaym

Well, I don't believe this to be issues with CCC and instead ATI's implementation of OpenGL or something else; but still wanted to provide the information so I am posting in the request format here so that hopefully CATALYST maker or another ATI rep could hopefully respond... a lot of hope there on my part I'm sure.

I'm at work right now, so can't post screenshots, if they'd help to show my two issues then I will post them when I get home. Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide. -- Jay

FIRST ISSUE:

1) Problem Name:
Pixel Popping (as explained here: http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/ssaa/index2.php)

2) System Configuration:

SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB (latest BIOS)
P4 3.4Ghz Extreme Edition CPU
2GB PC3200 Corsair RAM specified by motherboard
ATI X800 XT PE (Catalyst 5.1 w/CCC)
(and sometimes an nVidia 6800 Ultra (67.02) that doesn't have issue, but image quality is worse so I want my X800XTPE to work!!!)
3Ware PCI-X 64-bit/66Mhz SATA RAID Controller with 128mb Cache (latest firmware and drivers)
2x36GB Western Digital Raptor Drives in RAID0 for games
IBM GXP180 ATA100 Drive for Operating System
SB Live 2 Platinum (latest drivers)
Saitek Gamer KB (using latest Microsoft USB HID drivers)
Razer Diamondback Mouse (latest drivers)
Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2 (latest patches from MS Update)
Microsoft DirectX 9.0c
Absolutely no Spyware or Viruses, McAfee AV and MS Spyware Beta, confirmed with HiJackThis (I also don't use this computer for anything but games, no email or web browsing)

3) Detailed Steps to Reproduce:

Chose any settings you want via CCC (or via CP in non-CCC install or Omega drivers) -- personally I'm trying to run at 1280x1024x32x85Hz (forced refresh) and 4x AA, 4x AS, Vertical Sync ON... I have tried all possible settings (I think) of all of those items as well as AI, etc. No difference in issue.
Run City of Heroes
Play a character in any city with large buildings (even the starter zone)
Run around
Pay attention to the corner edges of the large buildings or any sharp angles on them, you'll notice BRIGHT WHITE lines and dots that come and go as you change angles (ie: Pixel Popping from the above reference article... they change between animations)
Pay attention to the roads, you will see seems in the road that exhibit the same Pixel Popping in some locations

4) Expected Behaviour:
NO Pixel Popping. This does NOT happen with my nVidia 6800 Ultra... but the image quality on the nVidia isn't nearly as vibrant and "deep" as on the ATI. I was amazed the first time I went into a sewer with the new ATI card and could actually perceive depth between the pipes on the ceiling. VERY NICE IMAGE... till I moved that is.

Then the flashing lines and dots got annoying REAL QUICK.

SECOND ISSUE:

1) Problem Name:
Detail Textures Flashing on/off

More Description: It looks like there is a layered texture on top of another one and the top layer disappears when moving. I couldn't find a description on the web of the problem, so hopefully I'm describing it adequately. One clear example is if there is a stain on the floor for example (dirt/blood/oil spill/etc.) and you move around, the stain will disappear and come back depending on what angle you are viewing from. There are also some wall segments that have another texture on top of them and they too disappear depending on angle.

2) System Configuration:

SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB (latest BIOS)
P4 3.4Ghz Extreme Edition CPU
2GB PC3200 Corsair RAM specified by motherboard
ATI X800 XT PE (Catalyst 5.1 w/CCC)
(and sometimes an nVidia 6800 Ultra (67.02) that doesn't have issue, but image quality is worse so I want my X800XTPE to work!!!)
3Ware PCI-X 64-bit/66Mhz SATA RAID Controller with 128mb Cache (latest firmware and drivers)
2x36GB Western Digital Raptor Drives in RAID0 for games
IBM GXP180 ATA100 Drive for Operating System
SB Live 2 Platinum (latest drivers)
Saitek Gamer KB (using latest Microsoft USB HID drivers)
Razer Diamondback Mouse (latest drivers)
Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2 (latest patches from MS Update)
Microsoft DirectX 9.0c
Absolutely no Spyware or Viruses, McAfee AV and MS Spyware Beta, confirmed with HiJackThis (I also don't use this computer for anything but games, no email or web browsing)

3) Detailed Steps to Reproduce:

Chose any settings you want via CCC (or via CP in non-CCC install or Omega drivers) -- personally I'm trying to run at 1280x1024x32x85Hz (forced refresh) and 4x AA, 4x AS, Vertical Sync ON... I have tried all possible settings (I think) of all of those items as well as AI, etc. No difference in issue.
Run City of Heroes
Two places to reproduce problem
First is a fixed location, but a higher level area so if you don't have a higher level (20 or higher I think) you won't be able to get to it. That place is in the Terra Volta zone (inside of Independence Port zone). Once you enter Terra Volta you can run jump over to the catwalk and run to the end of it, turn around and look back towards the entrance. You will see a wall underneath the platform where the entrance was, at the far left and right corners of the wall is a wall section that has what I'm calling a detail texture overlay on top of the normal wall texture. If you turn left and right, you'll see it disappear.
Second can be found with even a newbie character, but I can't give a specific location for you. The place I've most noticed it is in an indoor office building mission that has tile floors in some rooms. On the tile floors they may have stains on them. If you are looking at the stain and turn left or right or run around, you'll see the entire stain flash on and off. VERY annoying.

4) Expected Behaviour:
Detail Textures do not flash on and off and instead stay there the entire time no matter what angle you are viewing from. This does NOT happen with my nVidia 6800 Ultra.

i playing in the COH uk beta and have a X800pro and i using the 5.1 drivers, i not having any of the problems you having.

Did u use driver cleaner to make sure the old drivers was off. and also did u clearn out the nvidia drivers.

jaym · Jan 25, 2005, 08:43 PM

Yes. Driver Cleaner is used (in safe mode, after uninstalling drivers) between EACH AND EVERY driver change. I run ALL checks for all ATI program cleanup, and nVidia cleanups if I am switching cards as well.

The problems are very slight. Could you perhaps be having the two issues and just not noticed? Visual problems bug the heck out of me, my girlfriend never noticed it on her ATI 9600XT until I pointed them out to her. If you have a character that can make it into Terra Volta, that is a good place to see ISSUE NUMBER TWO that I'm having.

I should have mentioned my ingame settings are all maxed a well. 200%, 200%, 50k, High Textures, etc... running at 1280x1024.

GeneralClaymore · Jan 25, 2005, 11:36 PM

i would had notice something like that . but i don't get them bugs. the only thing that aint working for me is AA and Af . thats it.

jaym · Jan 26, 2005, 01:02 AM

Okay, here are some screenshots to demonstrate my issues.

First up is what I'm calling Detail Overlay Texture Flashing on and off. In the first shot things look normal, when I move a little bit then the problem exposes itself.

In the second shot you can see how the Detail Overlay Texture corrupts and mostly disappears.

Now for the next group of shots of the side of a building, you can see that in the first shot where the problem is... until I move that is.

On the next shot you can see where the Pixel Popping is gone, again, all I did was move a little bit and the Pixel Popping went away.

On the next couple of comparisons you can see the same Pixel Popping except on a roadway surface. In the first shot you can see that everything looks normal.

In the second shot you can see the same Pixel Popping problem that I see on buildings.

Okay, so, hopefully this can help folks see what I'm talking about, and of course, hopefully someone from ATI can help me! Thanks again for the assistance!

Jay

The_Neon_Cowboy · Jan 26, 2005, 01:08 AM

I'd report any problems to the game deveoplers not just the video card driver team... You realise there is a form you fill outand should use to submit any bugs to ATI....

Quote:

What I know, some fact, some of what I believe to be true mix in a lot of
opinion:

City of hero's is a NVIDIA "meant to be played game". Which commonly means it was not only programmed and tested only on NV hardware they test insure it runs best on NVIDIA hardware. The game is optimized for only NVIDIA’s way of doing things. Long as it runs ok on NV hardware the will likely care less how good or bad it runs on ATI hardware as long as it "runs".

Developer and video card makers something’s need to work together to resolve problems. Some of these meant to be played NV backed companies are not receptive to any co operation with anyone besides NVIDIA who threw a bunch of $ their way Via cards, deals, or just cold hard cash. They leave it to ATI to fix any problems. Sad thing is not all problems can be fixed on the driver end. It's become common... if it says meant to be played on the box their will be an inherent problem with it running on ATI cards from the get go.

Weather it's the lack of testing or co-operation it's more then just coincidence. It’s anything but be it a new NVIDIA marketing tactic or not something is up. Though it not totally relevant to the discussion at hand you should keep it in mind.

jaym · Jan 26, 2005, 01:48 AM

Interesting qoute there Neon Cowboy, sounds familiar, think I've read it elsewhere... maybe here on the forums when I was searching for previous CoH topics? Can't remember. City of Heroes developers and CoH tech support unfortunately refuse to respond to the issue stating that since there are no issues on the nVidia card it can't be a problem with CoH.

An end user (ie: me) can send a request via the official channels of ATI and get no response at all. Figured I would try here at this point. Yes I fully understand proper support structures, but when they fail, one can sometimes get alternatives to work for them. This is what I am trying at this point.

I appreciate your response!

Jay

jaym · Jan 30, 2005, 02:27 PM

After doing some more Googling around I found this article:

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY0LDEw

that shows some independent verification of the issue I'm having... or at least the first issue. I've also noticed with more Googling that both issues seem to exist in MANY OpenGL games, not just City of Heroes. Hopefully that will make this issue generic enough to get deeper attention and comment as opposed to ATI just feeling that I should contact City of Heroes support (who thinks I should contact ATI support).

I will try and take some time to play Doom3 for a little while so I can post screenshots of the issue happening in that game as well (if they do, haven't played it since I switched to the ATI). From what I read the dots and lines show up in Doom3 as well though, so shouldn't be a problem making this an OpenGL and ATI problem instead of a City of Heroes and ATI problem.

Also, just to note I submitted a second ATI Cutomer Care Support ticket. In this new ticket I used the above format that CATALYST maker asked for. Just like the first time I got back a generic: "Games have problems, read the following FAQ and use the ATI search function on our website." But this time I responded back asking to please have a human followup with me. Maybe I'll hear something... I hope!

nitrousoxide52 · Feb 7, 2005, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaym

Okay, here are some screenshots to demonstrate my issues.

First up is what I'm calling Detail Overlay Texture Flashing on and off. In the first shot things look normal, when I move a little bit then the problem exposes itself.

In the second shot you can see how the Detail Overlay Texture corrupts and mostly disappears.

Now for the next group of shots of the side of a building, you can see that in the first shot where the problem is... until I move that is.

On the next shot you can see where the Pixel Popping is gone, again, all I did was move a little bit and the Pixel Popping went away.

On the next couple of comparisons you can see the same Pixel Popping except on a roadway surface. In the first shot you can see that everything looks normal.

In the second shot you can see the same Pixel Popping problem that I see on buildings.

Okay, so, hopefully this can help folks see what I'm talking about, and of course, hopefully someone from ATI can help me! Thanks again for the assistance!

Jay

I know that the road bug that you saw is a mapping alignment texture error, this will happen in all peoples games.

sc3000 · Feb 7, 2005, 01:04 PM

I get that in sof2 with my 9800pro

nitrousoxide52 · Feb 15, 2005, 12:18 AM

This doesn't really happen all that often ingame, and I'm pretty used to it when it does

Jan 25, 2005, 08:43 PM	Thread Starter #3
jaym DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Virginia, US Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	Yes. Driver Cleaner is used (in safe mode, after uninstalling drivers) between EACH AND EVERY driver change. I run ALL checks for all ATI program cleanup, and nVidia cleanups if I am switching cards as well. The problems are very slight. Could you perhaps be having the two issues and just not noticed? Visual problems bug the heck out of me, my girlfriend never noticed it on her ATI 9600XT until I pointed them out to her. If you have a character that can make it into Terra Volta, that is a good place to see ISSUE NUMBER TWO that I'm having. I should have mentioned my ingame settings are all maxed a well. 200%, 200%, 50k, High Textures, etc... running at 1280x1024. __________________ Rig: SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB, P4 3.4Ghz EE CPU, 2GB Corsair RAM, ATI X800 XT PE, 3Ware RAID, 2x36GB Raptors RAID0 for games, IBM GXP180 for WinXP Pro SP1, SB Live 2 Plat, Saitek KB, Razer Mouse

Jan 25, 2005, 11:36 PM	#4
GeneralClaymore HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MI Posts: 434 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	i would had notice something like that . but i don't get them bugs. the only thing that aint working for me is AA and Af . thats it. __________________ Source: x-fi titanium hd 2x LT1124ACN+ 2x LT1115 > Matrix M-Stage V2 /w 2x LME49710NA> DT880 pro 250ohm

Jan 26, 2005, 01:02 AM	Thread Starter #5
jaym DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Virginia, US Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	Example Screenshots Okay, here are some screenshots to demonstrate my issues. First up is what I'm calling Detail Overlay Texture Flashing on and off. In the first shot things look normal, when I move a little bit then the problem exposes itself. In the second shot you can see how the Detail Overlay Texture corrupts and mostly disappears. Now for the next group of shots of the side of a building, you can see that in the first shot where the problem is... until I move that is. On the next shot you can see where the Pixel Popping is gone, again, all I did was move a little bit and the Pixel Popping went away. On the next couple of comparisons you can see the same Pixel Popping except on a roadway surface. In the first shot you can see that everything looks normal. In the second shot you can see the same Pixel Popping problem that I see on buildings. Okay, so, hopefully this can help folks see what I'm talking about, and of course, hopefully someone from ATI can help me! Thanks again for the assistance! Jay __________________ Rig: SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB, P4 3.4Ghz EE CPU, 2GB Corsair RAM, ATI X800 XT PE, 3Ware RAID, 2x36GB Raptors RAID0 for games, IBM GXP180 for WinXP Pro SP1, SB Live 2 Plat, Saitek KB, Razer Mouse

Jan 26, 2005, 01:48 AM	Thread Starter #7
jaym DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Virginia, US Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	Interesting qoute there Neon Cowboy, sounds familiar, think I've read it elsewhere... maybe here on the forums when I was searching for previous CoH topics? Can't remember. City of Heroes developers and CoH tech support unfortunately refuse to respond to the issue stating that since there are no issues on the nVidia card it can't be a problem with CoH. An end user (ie: me) can send a request via the official channels of ATI and get no response at all. Figured I would try here at this point. Yes I fully understand proper support structures, but when they fail, one can sometimes get alternatives to work for them. This is what I am trying at this point. I appreciate your response! Jay __________________ Rig: SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB, P4 3.4Ghz EE CPU, 2GB Corsair RAM, ATI X800 XT PE, 3Ware RAID, 2x36GB Raptors RAID0 for games, IBM GXP180 for WinXP Pro SP1, SB Live 2 Plat, Saitek KB, Razer Mouse

Jan 30, 2005, 02:27 PM	Thread Starter #8
jaym DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Virginia, US Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	After doing some more Googling around I found this article: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY0LDEw that shows some independent verification of the issue I'm having... or at least the first issue. I've also noticed with more Googling that both issues seem to exist in MANY OpenGL games, not just City of Heroes. Hopefully that will make this issue generic enough to get deeper attention and comment as opposed to ATI just feeling that I should contact City of Heroes support (who thinks I should contact ATI support). I will try and take some time to play Doom3 for a little while so I can post screenshots of the issue happening in that game as well (if they do, haven't played it since I switched to the ATI). From what I read the dots and lines show up in Doom3 as well though, so shouldn't be a problem making this an OpenGL and ATI problem instead of a City of Heroes and ATI problem. Also, just to note I submitted a second ATI Cutomer Care Support ticket. In this new ticket I used the above format that CATALYST maker asked for. Just like the first time I got back a generic: "Games have problems, read the following FAQ and use the ATI search function on our website." But this time I responded back asking to please have a human followup with me. Maybe I'll hear something... I hope! __________________ Rig: SuperMicro P4SCT+II MB, P4 3.4Ghz EE CPU, 2GB Corsair RAM, ATI X800 XT PE, 3Ware RAID, 2x36GB Raptors RAID0 for games, IBM GXP180 for WinXP Pro SP1, SB Live 2 Plat, Saitek KB, Razer Mouse

Feb 7, 2005, 01:04 PM	#10
sc3000 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 225 Rep Power: 0	I get that in sof2 with my 9800pro

Feb 15, 2005, 12:18 AM	#11
nitrousoxide52 Driverheaven.com err .net Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,719 Rep Power: 0	This doesn't really happen all that often ingame, and I'm pretty used to it when it does __________________ AMD Athlon64 X2 3800+ XFX Geforce 7800GT ABIT AN8-SLI BFG Tech 650w