Is ATI responsible for the craptastic BF2 shadows??

Stephen M. Smit · Jun 23, 2005, 02:34 PM

OK, I have a x850XT PE running the 5.6 Catalyst drivers. I've been doing some BF2 benchmarks for it various video options using the built-in timedemo functionality. What on earth is up w/this????

Dynamic Shadows = OFF
Frames: 2967 - Time: 38174ms - Avg: 77.723 - Min: 54 - Max: 99

Dynamic Shadows = LOW
Frames: 2969 - Time: 47020ms - Avg: 63.143 - Min: 45 - Max: 82

That's a huge fps hit (-14) for just the lowest possible level of dynamic shadowing! Only the lighting option has a greater impact on fps (the high setting adds bump maps).

And the shadows look like crap anyway (extremely blocky). Is this a problem w/current ATI drivers? Is this something that can be fixed (less blocky, less fps hit) in future drivers?

daedal · Jun 23, 2005, 02:37 PM

Yup; the blocky shadows is a known issue with Catalyst 5.6 Drivers as they were released before the Battlefield 2 demo was. It will almost certainly be fixed in 5.7.

Stephen M. Smit · Jun 23, 2005, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daedal

Yup; the blocky shadows is a known issue with Catalyst 5.6 Drivers as they were released before the Battlefield 2 demo was. It will almost certainly be fixed in 5.7.

That's good news. How about the massive fps hit? Is that something that can be improved in the drivers?

H3X4D3C1M4L · Jun 23, 2005, 06:44 PM

Probably...they just have to write the drivers to take better care of how BF2 caches things is all.

Spyre · Jun 23, 2005, 07:50 PM

@daedal
Sorry but you dont know what you are on about, all games with shadows take a performance hit if they are enabled, BF2 is no different

The shadows are also blocky on both ATI and Nvidia cards its the way the developers made them

f0rbez · Jun 23, 2005, 09:27 PM

Then why have shadows at all? If they're going to look this bad regardless.. might as well disable them.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Jun 23, 2005, 10:13 PM

Its hard to tell issues with the bf2 demo it seems so "beta". I'd like to hands on a full
reatail and current build as thre are already patches in the works i've read...

I run the game on all "high" settings.. game isn't the graohically intensive
just massively wastefull of recources

Read spyres post ... Same on nvidia cards

swatX · Jun 23, 2005, 11:43 PM

i just played the retail version the its the same situation. Blocky Shadows. let sjust hope they are fixed in 5.7

Spyre · Jun 24, 2005, 12:33 AM

I guess you dont get the whole 'same on Nvidia cards' thing then?

Stephen M. Smit · Jun 24, 2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyre

I guess you dont get the whole 'same on Nvidia cards' thing then?

Are you sure shadows are the same fps hit/crappy looking for Nvidia cards? I thought I'd read that shadows did not render so blocky on Nvidia cards, which was my whole motivation for asking if ATI can fix this in drivers. If the look as crappy and have the same huge fps hit for Nvidia cards, then I apologize to ATI for barking up the wrong tree.

Stephen M. Smit · Jun 24, 2005, 01:27 AM

Also, here's hoping that BF2 will be so popular that it will be privy to some Catalyst AI game-specific driver optimizations!!

Stephen M. Smit · Jun 24, 2005, 01:51 AM

Also, forgot to mention:

Enabling Dynamic Shadows (low) adds 4MB of shader data to BF2's cache directory, which makes me think that the performance impact is related to the driver's pixel shader code, and could therefore be improved w/new drivers and/or game-specific optimizations. But I don't really know what I'm talking about so I could be completely wrong (as is often the case <g>).

EvaUnitXIV · Jun 24, 2005, 05:53 AM

4.12 even has those shadows

The_Neon_Cowboy · Jun 24, 2005, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen M. Smit

Are you sure shadows are the same fps hit/crappy looking for Nvidia cards? I thought I'd read that shadows did not render so blocky on Nvidia cards, which was my whole motivation for asking if ATI can fix this in drivers. If the look as crappy and have the same huge fps hit for Nvidia cards, then I apologize to ATI for barking up the wrong tree.

Here are his cards from his siggy on another forum if that ques you in....

X800 Pro VIVO 9800, 9700 ,8500 AIW, 7500, 7000
GF4MX, GF4600, 5200FX, 5600FX, 5900FX

H3X4D3C1M4L · Jun 24, 2005, 05:12 PM

Thats alot of cards

Anyway, nVidia has that whole hypershadow technology thing so theirs would be drawn entirely different from ATI's

Tipstaff · Jun 25, 2005, 10:04 AM

Don't forget, the first time you run a game after having changed graphics settings the game optimizes shaders based on your system and settings. While it is most likely an issue with the ATI drivers it could also be the fault of the game, and the way they 'optimize' the shaders for ATI cards. It may be chosing to nerf shaders to much, or us some stupid software or older version of them.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Jun 25, 2005, 09:50 PM

Yeah like Far Cry and its whole shader thing... which is totally ridiculous

The_Neon_Cowboy · Jun 26, 2005, 12:31 AM

If it where an ATI or ATI driver issue then why would it look the exactly
same on nvidia cards with nvidia drivers as already been stated by a user
with both ATI & Nvida cards

What part of it look the same one nvidia cards doesn't people understand?
When it happens on both it undoubtably is something with the game....

Quote:

Originally Posted by H3X4D3C1M4L

Yeah like Far Cry and its whole shader thing... which is totally ridiculous

I try not to know far cry doespite thier previous record of brand specfic paths. I'm just glad
they fixed a buch of problems a a patch, as in to fix problems with thier game... admiting
problems on thier end/ Fixing alot of issues people blamed on ati & drivers... I think it's all
a part of ment to be played and ment to try to make ati look bad. Developers marketing cards a thier finest...

Tipstaff · Jun 26, 2005, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Neon_Cowboy

What part of it look the same one nvidia cards doesn't people understand?
When it happens on both it undoubtably is something with the game....

Probably poor programming.. or laziness.

However, even though Spyre has mentioned that the shadows are blockey with both Nvidia and ATI cards I would like to know if the same thing happens with a later Nvidia card. Since all the cards he listed are SM2.1 or lower (just a note though, the game doesn't support anything less than an ATI 8500, or an Nvidia Geforce FX or higher), I'm wondering what difference we'd see on an Nvidia 6xxx series SM3.0 based card? DICE could have 2 different methods of displaying shadows: one with SM3.0, and one for everything else (possibley a software method?). This would explain the quality of the shadows in EA/DICEs screenshots that are out there such as THIS one, which don't have blocky shadows. From what I remember those screenies (and that one) were all taken using 6xxx based cards, primarily 6800 Ultras.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Jun 27, 2005, 06:22 AM

If it gets fixed with SM3, we know whose ass nVidia has been kissing....

The_Neon_Cowboy · Jun 27, 2005, 11:17 AM

Turn dynamic shadows off and it looks perfict, the shadows look exactly as they should, wich make me wonder WTF??? BF2 people. There is talk of a newer internal build then what was retail so there maybe a patch comeing... when god only knows...

Spyre · Jun 27, 2005, 11:35 AM

I asked someone with a 7800 to have a look at the shadows on BF2 for me

H3X4D3C1M4L · Jun 27, 2005, 04:29 PM

If someone already has a 7800 GTX in their hands....luck...

But again, if the 7800 magically "fixes" these problems, we know who nVidia has been sucking up to...

Y2Stu · Jun 28, 2005, 02:40 PM

isn't the game sponsered by Nvidia? So BF2 will be optimised (Spelling?) for Nvidia Cards

Jun 23, 2005, 02:34 PM	#1
Stephen M. Smit DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 79 Rep Power: 0	Is ATI responsible for the craptastic BF2 shadows?? OK, I have a x850XT PE running the 5.6 Catalyst drivers. I've been doing some BF2 benchmarks for it various video options using the built-in timedemo functionality. What on earth is up w/this???? Dynamic Shadows = OFF Frames: 2967 - Time: 38174ms - Avg: 77.723 - Min: 54 - Max: 99 Dynamic Shadows = LOW Frames: 2969 - Time: 47020ms - Avg: 63.143 - Min: 45 - Max: 82 That's a huge fps hit (-14) for just the lowest possible level of dynamic shadowing! Only the lighting option has a greater impact on fps (the high setting adds bump maps). And the shadows look like crap anyway (extremely blocky). Is this a problem w/current ATI drivers? Is this something that can be fixed (less blocky, less fps hit) in future drivers?

Jun 23, 2005, 02:37 PM	#2
daedal Uber Coffee Drinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Gatineau, Quebec Posts: 2,250 Rep Power: 0	Yup; the blocky shadows is a known issue with Catalyst 5.6 Drivers as they were released before the Battlefield 2 demo was. It will almost certainly be fixed in 5.7. __________________

Jun 23, 2005, 07:50 PM	#5
Spyre DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 240 Rep Power: 60	@daedal Sorry but you dont know what you are on about, all games with shadows take a performance hit if they are enabled, BF2 is no different The shadows are also blocky on both ATI and Nvidia cards its the way the developers made them __________________ ATI Beta Tester game.AMD.Moderator

Jun 23, 2005, 10:13 PM	#7
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Its hard to tell issues with the bf2 demo it seems so "beta". I'd like to hands on a full reatail and current build as thre are already patches in the works i've read... I run the game on all "high" settings.. game isn't the graohically intensive just massively wastefull of recources Read spyres post ... Same on nvidia cards __________________ Last edited by The_Neon_Cowboy; Jun 24, 2005 at 12:45 AM.

Jun 23, 2005, 11:43 PM	#8
swatX ba\|\\|\\|ed Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 618 Rep Power: 0	i just played the retail version the its the same situation. Blocky Shadows. let sjust hope they are fixed in 5.7 __________________ thx stick for the sig

Jun 23, 2005, 06:44 PM	#4
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	Probably...they just have to write the drivers to take better care of how BF2 caches things is all.

Jun 23, 2005, 09:27 PM	#6
f0rbez DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2004 Location: s jersey, us Posts: 176 Rep Power: 0	Then why have shadows at all? If they're going to look this bad regardless.. might as well disable them.

Jun 24, 2005, 12:33 AM	#9
Spyre DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 240 Rep Power: 60	I guess you dont get the whole 'same on Nvidia cards' thing then? __________________ ATI Beta Tester game.AMD.Moderator

Jun 24, 2005, 01:27 AM	Thread Starter #11
Stephen M. Smit DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 79 Rep Power: 0	Also, here's hoping that BF2 will be so popular that it will be privy to some Catalyst AI game-specific driver optimizations!!

Jun 24, 2005, 01:51 AM	Thread Starter #12
Stephen M. Smit DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 79 Rep Power: 0	Also, forgot to mention: Enabling Dynamic Shadows (low) adds 4MB of shader data to BF2's cache directory, which makes me think that the performance impact is related to the driver's pixel shader code, and could therefore be improved w/new drivers and/or game-specific optimizations. But I don't really know what I'm talking about so I could be completely wrong (as is often the case <g>).

Jun 24, 2005, 05:53 AM	#13
EvaUnitXIV DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 229 Rep Power: 0	4.12 even has those shadows __________________ AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Abit KV8 Buffalo 2x512mb PC3200 ram 40GB Maxtor 7200rpm HD (Boot) 2x250GB WD SE 8mb Cache 7200rpm HD (Filedump) Benq 1620 Pro Liteon 1635s x800GTO @ x800XL SB Audigy Gamer WinXp Pro /w Sp2

Jun 24, 2005, 05:12 PM	#15
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	Thats alot of cards Anyway, nVidia has that whole hypershadow technology thing so theirs would be drawn entirely different from ATI's

Jun 25, 2005, 10:04 AM	#16
Tipstaff HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Real capital of Canada: Torauna Posts: 6,660 Rep Power: 187 System Specs	Don't forget, the first time you run a game after having changed graphics settings the game optimizes shaders based on your system and settings. While it is most likely an issue with the ATI drivers it could also be the fault of the game, and the way they 'optimize' the shaders for ATI cards. It may be chosing to nerf shaders to much, or us some stupid software or older version of them. __________________ Portal: The Flash Version _________________________________ Brain: So, you sacked the cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker? Mr. Sackett: The second cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker I've sacked since the sixth sitting sheet slitter got sick.

Jun 25, 2005, 09:50 PM	#17
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	Yeah like Far Cry and its whole shader thing... which is totally ridiculous

Jun 27, 2005, 06:22 AM	#20
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	If it gets fixed with SM3, we know whose ass nVidia has been kissing....

Jun 27, 2005, 11:17 AM	#21
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Turn dynamic shadows off and it looks perfict, the shadows look exactly as they should, wich make me wonder WTF??? BF2 people. There is talk of a newer internal build then what was retail so there maybe a patch comeing... when god only knows... __________________

Jun 27, 2005, 11:35 AM	#22
Spyre DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: England Posts: 240 Rep Power: 60	I asked someone with a 7800 to have a look at the shadows on BF2 for me __________________ ATI Beta Tester game.AMD.Moderator

Jun 27, 2005, 04:29 PM	#23
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	If someone already has a 7800 GTX in their hands....luck... But again, if the 7800 magically "fixes" these problems, we know who nVidia has been sucking up to...

Jun 28, 2005, 02:40 PM	#24
Y2Stu HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Blackpool, UK Posts: 56 Rep Power: 0	isn't the game sponsered by Nvidia? So BF2 will be optimised (Spelling?) for Nvidia Cards __________________