AMD HD 6xxx Series and 4K Displays

Discussion in 'Hardware Discussion & Support' started by Judas, May 29, 2014.

  1. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    So on AMD's website regarding display port and their adoption of making 1.2 standard across all their gpu's along with requiring manufacturers (3rd party) to provide display port 1.2 in either full sized or mini dp, they list a maximum resolution as 3840x2160 or 4096x2160 (4K), makes sense as when 1.2 arrived it was touted as the only industry standard and VESA compliant method of providing 4k resolutions @ 60hz. Not to mention the support for MST (Multi-Stream Transport)


    So this sounds all fantastic... right?


    Now I know.... I KNOW.... as I've personally bore witness to the setup... I was around a few months back to see what the new Asus PQ321Q... that insanely expensive 32" 4K display. Suffice it to say, on a 6970, hooked up the lone display port cable directly to the monitor.... powered it up, set the display resolution modes correctly (detecting MST properly) and boom.. 4k (3840x2160) no problem. with MST, it treats the display as 2 separate 1920x2160 resolution displays, and the internal mst hub in the monitor works it all out.


    What's interesting about this is that using MST requires just a touch more bandwidth due to having to negotiate a little more due to the having 2 individual high resolution streams, so really a single stream should amount to less workload/difficulty and less bandwidth even if it's minuscule.


    So what can go wrong with a single stream 4K display like the Samsung U28D590 monitor I recently picked up.. or the wealth of other monitors now popping up like winter is over and spring was skipped straight to summer... I mean Display port 1.2 is fully compliant with the requirements, all the displays require is 1.2 ... not 1.2a as the "a" revision adds some extra features not necessary.... Should work right out of the box right?


    Nope... apparently not.


    Now the details seem to be far and few between, I've emailed AMD and a few other 3rd party manufacturers, I've tried a bunch of a different cards out of curiousity... Anything HD7xxx and up seems to work out of the box no problems.... but HD6xxx which should also work out of the box seems to hit a brick wall, in fact it's argueably worse than that, i'd say it's confusing entirely.


    1: A lot of the technical support people don't even seem to know what 4k is, getting rather confused responces asking about how 1080p (1920x1080) works? Best yet is the claim that 2560x1600 is the highest resolution monitor you can get as 3840x2160 doesn't exist yet, so i'm guessing that one didn't have a clue at all.


    2: Outright evading the problem and blaming it on the lack of any idea that 4k would be a thing.... again technical support agents that say something like this (paraphrasing) "4K Monitors didn't exist when those video cards were made, so there is no way they could have made them work with displays, it's 2 generations old!" which one, doesn't answer or present any kind of solution, and two, is irrelevant as the standards are set in place regardless of what was "available", three, the HD6950/6970 arrived very late 2010, the displayport 1.2 spec/standard was in 2009, of which like I mentioned, touted 4k 60hz as it's primary awesomeness of the displayport 1.2 capabilities.... So if you build a video card with 1.2, it better support the flagship standard.


    3: "The card must be defective, we can arrange for a warranty replacement". This one scratches my head, considering I've already mentioned trying other 6xxx cards with no luck, same results. There is no evidence that it's defective, so why offer a replacement wasting peoples time rather than maybe looking into the matter.




    The only thing i'm really complaining about here is the total lack of actually attempting to resolve a problem, finding the cause and giving a straight answer. In fact, it's wasting so much time both mine and theirs, with no results, that it's facepalmable considering the wide range of answers from all these companies that either have NOTHING to do with the issue OR just make up stuff on the fly that has a 50/50 chance of potentially pertaining to it. Worse yet is the occasions of having to repeat ones self, which makes me think that several of my tickets have been handled by several different agents. Some of them have been borderline rude in their responses.


    Who'd think that getting a 4k display and trying to make it work with a range of adapters would be a problem specially considering that all these video cards are advertised as dp 1.2.


    Anyways, i'm not looking for a miracle.. i'm just looking to see if there is a clear defined reason as to why the display port on these cards appear to run the full 4k using MST just fine, but using the same bandwidth and capabilities (in fact less requirements) to do a single 4k stream, they appear to fail.




    So anyone out there with a HD 6xxx card that wants to run 4k using a single stream monitor such as the Samsung U28D590, be forewarned, it won't work, the monitor must be a MST based display currently.


    I'm really just hoping it's a driver limitation that has been overlooked, or perhaps something a bios update could resolve (though considering the age of the 6000 gpus.. i'm betting that the manufacturers aren't likely to care and simply would rather make certain that money is spent on a newer gpu rather than making a quick fix for an older one that is more than capable of doing the same task)
     
  2. Stuart_Davidson

    Stuart_Davidson Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious... does the 6000 card have HDMI and if so, does it work on the Samsung screen at 4k with 25Hz etc?
     
  3. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    Nope... they are limited to 1920x1080 only @ 60hz... I cannot manually select anything higher although Samsung reports that the hdmi inputs on the display do support 1.4 @ 30hz for 4k.


    I tried to run dual HDMI in order to use the PBP functionality of the display which allows for feeding it 2 separate inputs, any combination of DP/HDMI1/HDMI2 .... however hdmi output from the video cards produce nothing higher than 1920x1080. or in this case, 1080x1920... the DP port does end up however showing 1920x2160 on one side, so I know it's not a height limitation....
     
  4. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    Just an update.....


    Everyone of the support tickets I started has gone silent aside from sapphire's last ticket saying:


    (semi paraphrasing)



    All because MST is supported on a HD 6xxx graphics card via display port... but apparently SST is not..... This still somewhat baffles me how something more complicated works fine yet something straight forward has been overlooked...
     
  5. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    So i'm up to 2 weeks on this display basically..... heres what I've found out:


    A vast majority, even the HIGH quality ones most people would expect to be good, 3ft - 15ft Display Port cables are for the most part not 4k compliant, sure you can get a 1080p or a 2560x1600 display to function, but the moment you jump into a single stream 4k resolution (or any resolution above 2560x1600) and you get a nice big fat black screen followed by the monitor falling asleep (even though the computer clearly thinks it's outputting a high resolution just fine WAITING for you to hit "yes" to the "can you see things alright?"


    HD6xxx still has zero clear reasons as to why it can't do Single Stream 4k, but can do multi stream 4k through a single compliant 4k display port cable.


    on both NVidia and AMD/ATI cards, when the monitor falls asleep (video is cut out via windows power saving) almost every time you wake it up, the computer appears to redetect the display resulting in ANY open windows having been shrunk and moved into a 1024x768 window size or location (top left hand corner) requiring you to shift everything around, far as I understand, no one appears to be experiencing this with any of the MST (multi stream) displays, least I didn't see it occur the short time I got to play with the Asus 32" 4k display.


    There appears to be an absurd amount of slow down or even lag in some situations for some programs or games.... typically you'd expect going from 2560x1600 (4m pixels) to 4k (8m pixels) would mean around 2-2.2 times SLOWER frame rates and whatnot, this is in many more recent games relatively true, but a few programs and applications appear to drag their feet or even stutter, I've even had the mantle swarm test outright stop responding with a near 10x slower fps result for the little bit of time it actually did run compared to 2560x1600/1440




    Overall though, I still think the hd6xxx dp 4k sst issue has got to be a driver or firmware issue that seems quite plausibly resolveable if any manufacturer would take the time to actually care. They really have NO reason not to support the HD6xxx at the very least... cmon....


    It's a dream working/using 4k displays... windows 8.1's scaling system works brilliantly.
     
  6. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    After contacting them all just once more, and never getting a response, I've just settled on using a HD7750 1GB for time being.... i'm still debating on if I should spring for the 290 or just hold onto my shorts and wait for the newly taped out AMD refresh using the 20-22nm that may arrive anywhere from now to as late as December...

    I've already got my 6950 2gb sold..... still i'm sure there are likely to be plenty of HD6xxx users out there that are eyeing up the widely available 4k single stream Transport displays that are becoming cheaper and cheaper..... last I checked the U28D590 Samsung model I got is now retailing for between $450-550 USD in some places which is actually cheaper than some of the 120 or 144hz TN displays which are IMO inferior due to 1080p and lower quality TN panels than the 4k 60hz Samsung uses.
     
  7. Dave Kuhr

    Dave Kuhr New Member

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    I have 2 HD 6990's in Quad Crossfire and I am driving 2 of the Samsung U28D590 4k monitors @ 3840x2160 45Hz. I had to patch the video driver and edit the available screen resolutions to get an option to go over the max resolution of 2560x1440. The problem seems to be AMD's drivers having the 4k resolution disabled for HD 6000 series cards so that they don't have to support higher resolutions than what the cards were originally specified to support. Unfortunately I was not able to drive the monitor any higher than 45Hz due to internal pixel clock limitations within the card but 45Hz actually seems more than adequate given the age of the cards and the huge amount of screen real estate offered by 2x 4k displays.

    The 2 bits of software I used to make this work were written by Toastyx and are:
    AMD-ATI-Pixel-Clock-Patcher available here http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-AMD-ATI-Pixel-Clock-Patcher
    Custom Resolution Utility (CRU) available here http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU

    Using the AMD-ATI-Pixel-Clock-Patcher does disable HDCP and hardware acceleration so I did need to force the browser to use flash and turn off hardware acceleration in order for YouTube and some other video content to play without a black screen. I also disabled the power settings for turning the monitor off since I was having issues with the monitors waking up from display port but this issue seems to be a problem at all resolutions independent of the patches applied.

    As it is right now I am happy to have the huge amount of additional screen real estate offered and can live with the few issues i have run into until the next decent die shrink where I will probably buy a new high end card(s) to replace the 2 HD 6990's in quad-crossfire. I have not done much in the way of bench-marking yet to see how these old cards perform but in the few games I have played so far the FPS seems stable and more than playable. In 2015 Autodesk products and Adobe CS6 the monitors are a huge improvement. The above patches may work with other series of cards but I do not own any to test. I hope the above info helps others with the same issue.
     
  8. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    This is fantastic information dave Kuhr, I'm guessing you discovered this thread through searching for other people having issues or trying to get 6000 series cards to work with 4k.

    I did try a number of different custom resolution apps.. but i'd get nothing but blank screens or some situations in which applying a set resolution would give me a 640x480 resolution.

    Those specific patches I didn't however try.

    I'm sure there will be a LOT of people that if they come across the thread.. will appreciate it... 30hz is a bit on the tough side for most people when they are used to the 60hz or higher.... 45hz is much more of an acceptable middle ground, specially with many games on even the 6990 would at a high quality setting stuggle to push much of a higher frame rate. Though portal 2 runs incredibly well on a 7750 1gb @ 4k with maxed settings averaging in around the 30-45fps mark. (rather impressive).


    I never did get a reply back from anyone at any of the technical support places I submitted a request the issue with... They basically ended up ignoring any further questions or messages asking for an update. One of which outright terminated the request for help without any option to reopen it... totally unresolved. Quite sad really...
     
  9. Dave Kuhr

    Dave Kuhr New Member

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    Yep, that was my reason for posting since it took me several hours over 2 days of searching bits and pieces to find a solution. Most of the information i was searching actually pertained to the Seiki 4k tv's that have been real cheap for quite some time. The Seiki has a single HDMI 1.4 port and people were having the same issue with the 6000 series cards not going to the 4k resolution. I knew when I bought the monitors that the cards would probably not run at 4k due to the max resolution AMD had posted for the cards but I really wish AMD would address this issue in a driver update at least for the cards like the higher end of the 6000 series that can push the displays to a reasonable level but I am sure it is too specific of a problem for old hardware for them to address. It is also pretty difficult to reach a tech support person @ any company who has a deep knowledge of the products and is willing to do everything they can to resolve customer issues.

    BTW Derpy looks so cute sleeping in your signature line.
     
  10. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    Well I didn't press the issue for HDMI because I was hoping to get the Display port sorted first.... plus I wanted something better than 30hz anyways.

    The thing is that MST 4k works on the HD6xxx .... just not SST.... this is what blows my mind just a bit.

    What I wanted wasn't a hack job method of getting things working.. I wanted someone... an official.. to either outright state ZERO 4k SST support or to implement a fix even if it's minimal (30hz) as clearly the 6000 CAN do something..... but I mostly just got the door slammed in my face with no explanation or clarification.

    And yes Derpy's doing quite fine...
     
  11. neoxatax

    neoxatax New Member

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    Hey Judas and Dave, I'm new here, great info, thank you! I successfully managed to achieve 3840x2160 at 30hz using an LG 4K TV, with both recommended tools Dave pointed out. Now the problem is the LG UHDTV only has HDMI 2.0 inputs and I can only achieve 30Hz do the HDMI limitation of 300MHz... Should I use a MiniDisplayport to HDMI cable or a Dual DVI cable or adapter to achieve a higher framerate? Dave: how did you manage to get 45Hz? Could you please elaborate and indicate which cables you used? Thank you!
     

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