Beating my head trying to figure out root of crash/freeze problem...

Discussion in 'Hardware Discussion & Support' started by The_Neon_Cowboy, May 9, 2017.

  1. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Trying to fix my my relatives PC....

    System randomly freezes even just on the desktop, and when gaming randomly freezes , reboots, crashes, sometimes after automatic reboot after crash the bios does not act correctly and hangs and you have to flip the power switch off on the PSU and back on to restart...happen on original board and new board I swapped in...

    I5 6600 (non-k)
    16gb corsair ballstic 2400 @ 2133
    asrock b250 pro 4
    sandisk 240gb ssd + Hitachi ultrastar 2TB
    Sapphire rx480 Nitro+
    windows 10 home

    This is not making any sense to me. And I'm beating my head trying to figure out what is causing this
    .
    *CPU passes Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool , temps are fine (using aftermarket heatpipe cooler)

    *Memory passes Windows memory tests memtest 86, still tried uping the voltage a little and testing system stability again... no effect have ran several times have had the system freeze a couple times while testing, but it should not be able to pass just fine on other attempts….

    *POWER Supply 650 Watts is more then what is needed, has been swapped out with known good PSU no effect

    * msi h110m Motherboard swapped with a asrock b250 pro 4 board no effect, latest bios and all that...

    *sandisk ssd / and 2tb hitchi ultra star appear fine, windows 10 home formated reinstalled, all the lastest drivers

    *swapped my MSI rx480 for his sapphire RX480 nitro, no effect


    can play TF2 for 15 minutes or 3+ hours just fine before there is a problem, seems completely random,
    I’ve found the system will not last 5 minutes using FurMark stress test


    Pulling my hair out….

    Think I Figured it out!

    looks like its has to be the memory, put a new kit of dd4 in that I had picked up and its at 30+ minutes and counting in Furmark, h

    Now how in the heck does memory causing the issue pass memtest 86 and windows memory tests?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  2. Calliers

    Calliers HH's MC Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    43,321
    Likes Received:
    2,846
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Corsair memory is garbage, I've had a lot of compatibility problems with it in the past, never buy Corsair.
     
  3. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

    Joined:
    May 13, 2002
    Messages:
    38,395
    Likes Received:
    891
    Trophy Points:
    138
    was going to say with a weird bios/boot issue on both boards.... that's almost certainly straight to memory..

    There are a few irritating cases in which it isn't memory but that's a first place to start.. even though memtest can pass along with windows pass.. memory has this weird issue where for no apparent reason at all.. will throw a fit... quite a number of people are actually excited bout the fact that ryzen supports native ECC memory completely and newer bios updates allows for it fully.

    i tend to stick to patriot memory myself... but it's kind of amazing how often i've swapped out crucial/corsair memory in favor of patriot and instantly fixed bizarre issue like that.
     
    Calliers likes this.
  4. Calliers

    Calliers HH's MC Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    43,321
    Likes Received:
    2,846
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Hmmm, that's interesting. I'll try Patriot next time I build. I used to stick to Crucial myself.
     
  5. Tipstaff

    Tipstaff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    888
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Patriot and Kingston Value Ram are the most compatible with Crucial Value Ram taking up 2nd.

    @Neon, you mentioned the system has 16GB of RAM. How many sticks in total (2x8GB, 4x4GB)? If they are separate sticks try one at a time. And try different slots. For instance if you are running 2x8GB sticks you would normally have them in slots 1 & 3 for dual channel. Instead, try slots 2 & 4.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  6. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    21,405
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Have you tried different OS?
     
  7. Calliers

    Calliers HH's MC Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    43,321
    Likes Received:
    2,846
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Um guys, I think he solved the problem lol. He put in a new kit of DDR4 though he didn't specify the brand.
     
  8. Tipstaff

    Tipstaff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    888
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Cool. Didn't see that update.
     
  9. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    21,405
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I missed that part, but, to be fair, it's always a good idea to remove Windows 10 from a PC.
     
  10. Calliers

    Calliers HH's MC Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    43,321
    Likes Received:
    2,846
    Trophy Points:
    139
    It's cool guys.

    LOL Trusteft! Trusteft in his day to day life on the streets of Greece - "Excuse me Sir, do you have a minute to chat about our lord and savior Linux?" :D
     
  11. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    21,405
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Linux? Also religious conversions are illegal here. No matter what religion.
     
  12. Calliers

    Calliers HH's MC Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    43,321
    Likes Received:
    2,846
    Trophy Points:
    139
    "This just in, Trusteft has been sent to jail for 5 years for attempting to convert a Windows user to a Linux user near his home in the streets of his town."
     
  13. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    21,405
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I have no idea why you think I like Linux, but ok :)
     
  14. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

    Joined:
    May 13, 2002
    Messages:
    38,395
    Likes Received:
    891
    Trophy Points:
    138
    because Mac OS is pure cancer?
     
  15. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    yea that what really annoys me is I did the windows memory test 1st and it passed, and later a run of memtest86 but later after eliminating pretty much everything else went back to it after one of the crash codes, pointed me back there and tried extended test and it would not fail but would hard lock during testing. (I had some of the strangest codes before that, had me chasing false trails )

    would been a lot easier if my systems where not so old lol.... still rocking a 2500k and I have tons of older parts (entire systems in parts) building a new rig soon as I decide on what I'm doing, 1080 or vega, ryzen or see what intels refresh brings, decisions , decisions... have about $1,000 set aside for it just for mobo/cpu/video card
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  16. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    21,405
    Likes Received:
    2,093
    Trophy Points:
    153
    You are an idiot.
     
  17. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

    Joined:
    May 13, 2002
    Messages:
    38,395
    Likes Received:
    891
    Trophy Points:
    138
    mmm... that sweet sarcasm.....


    2500k isn't too bad.. but anything lower than a 3000 series has lacked any driver updates for quite some time specially with anything windows 10 specific (can't install the 10 series chipset inf but the legacy 9.x chipset inf works fine still)...

    The biggest issue now a lot of people are facing specially with the higher end Nvidia cards is running out of cpu power (even on a 7700k).... it's kind of incredible how CPU intensive nvidia cards are.... everyone always said amd was cpu bound.. but they aren't.. it's nvidia that each cpu cycles up since it uses heavy multi threading for much of it's tasks be it dx11 or dx12 or vulkan.
     
    Calliers likes this.
  18. Calliers

    Calliers HH's MC Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    43,321
    Likes Received:
    2,846
    Trophy Points:
    139
    People who mindlessly believe in Nvidia cards are basically uninformed. That is all.
     
  19. Tipstaff

    Tipstaff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    888
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Either of you have any articles or reviews showing this to be the case though? And is it specific to Intel, AMD, or both? Would love to read it if you got it.

    I buy Nvidia for myself when it comes to gaming, and AMD for multimedia/graphics work, but I buy both for clients. In my case I had enough of AMDs' drivers to last me a lifetime, so I won't go there again. I admit, they've gotten better, but they'll still can't win me back.
     
  20. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

    Joined:
    May 13, 2002
    Messages:
    38,395
    Likes Received:
    891
    Trophy Points:
    138
    It's always interesting because the only time i ever run into troubles on any of my clients systems are almost exclusively nvidia related.. either dead/dying cards or their drivers buggering things up (and yes that's clean)... hell nvidia was the one that had to pull 2 complete driver packages due to the widespread BSODs.

    Either way, do a bit of googling on how nvidia handles their draw calls and software scheduling... it's all cpu based.. they break the workload down on all APIs in software and multi thread it heavily, which tends to be one of the reasons why they perform so well in dx11 and older titles most of all. If you disable all but one core, the nvidia card appears to lose it's performance for the task but this isn't an easy thing to do supposedly...

    While most of it is heavily kept under wraps by nvidia, the are a number of individuals that have been doing some research after they found out that 2 identical machines, both 7700k's were showing such widely different results with an nvidia 1080 and the rx 480 or 580, specially with sli/crossfired. Most of this was dug up when ryzen first launched and had dismal performance compared to the 7700k in basically every review while gaming... and people were left scratching their heads since the performance didn't coincide with the ipc capabilities of the chips, something was not right.

    Then a few people got the bright idea to put the AMD gpus into the same test bench systems and reran the tests, and low and behold... the ryzen cpus were basically matching up in many cases with the 7700k (even oced) and in some special conditions the ryzen cpus were beating the 7700k. So then the question and investigation moved towards figuring out why.

    Unfortunately i can't seem to find the articles and more indepth reviews/investigation as they've long since traveled down the list since, and google is throwing me nothing useful (per usual recently)... but one of the nvidia users, long time user that has been using nvidia nearly exclusively for gaming had the developement/coding experience to write up some programs and run some tests, and someone that claims to be either an nvidia software/driver developer or ex employee provided some further input, what came out was nvidia multi-threading solution which is apparently ingenius and frankly has to be handed to them that they were able to make something this complex work in software so effectively.. but as it's become known, it has serious caveats. Nvidia was saying they supported Async computing for example but there wasn't hte hardware to manage it properly, however they had since implemented a rudimentrary form of it via software scheduling... and prior to this, they had already implemented some serious cpu based software scheduling in other matters.

    This is why you see did identical systems, one with AMD RX580 (now) vs a 1060 9gbps on a 7700k... and why you'll see on occasion the gpu usage on the 1060 drop while the cpu usage increases... though it's usually minimal. On the higher end 1070/1080 and 1080ti, where the gpu can really push the frames, there seems to be far more things occuring (which makes sense) cpu wise with the greater number of draw calls and other scheduling that nails the cpu harder resulting in the cpu hitting the brick wall even faster even though you're getting high frame rates, it's already showing a cpu bound issue.

    In terms of the AMD CPUs with nvidia cards, with the heavy threading, the top frame rates would drop because of the way nvidia's driver threads, and with those threads having to complete the work and report back to the primary first thread with all the work completely, and how AMD's CCX's have a very HIGH latency between the 2x quad core complex's... this further explains the discrepency and also why amd's gpus aren't affected (since it does it in hardware). It's also theorised that the more threads created for nvidia the slower things generally run and nvidia may have a quad core or 8 thread limiting put in place for their drivers restricting their methods to a single complex on the amd cpus....

    It's kind of interesting the various hypothesis being formed, testing, theories developed and for the most part many things being proven true even though as i said, nvidia really refuses to tell anyone what's really going on but building evidence up is sufficient to draw on reasonable conclusions.
     

Share This Page

visited