CT4780 & Monsoon MM700 LCS-150 speaker set qwexion

Discussion in '3-D Audio' started by WxMan1, Jan 8, 2008.

  1. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    First off, allow me to be so to say "Hello! I'm a long-time lurker and first-time poster"

    And also:

    "Kudo's to the KX Dev team for creating this excellent driver/app set!"

    That being said, I'm cornfused 'bout some things.
    1. What does advanced options in the DSP context menu configure?
    2. toggle option in KX Miixer appears to be wholly useless when using the k1lt ProFx effect/plugin, i.e., even so the front channel is plugged into the rear-output port of my CT4780, speaker test garners sound emminating from the appropriate and discrete rear speakers (despite testing front speakers).
    3. the k1lt ProFx effect/plugin needs to be manually configured to swap front and rear channels?
    4. When using k1lt ProFX effect/plugin the f(L/fR) & s(L/R) outputs of Surrounder outputs are swapped by default, i.e., Surrounder f is inherently Surrounder s (and either cross-wiring, or configureing k1lt ProFx effect/plugin Out 0/1 for Rear Out - Out 3/4 configured as Analog Front - will accomplish the same result)?
    5. How do I implement Surrounder LFE output so as to utilize the active 3rd order cross-over at 250Hz in the Monsoon flat-panel w/sub-woofer speaker system (MM-700) that are implemented as my front channel(s) speakers and are plugged into the rear-port of my CT4780?
    6. How do I ensure that no Hz below optimum are being sent to the silly powered LCS-150 (Labtec) speakers that I'm using for me rear channel(s) and are plugged into the front port of my CT4780?
    7. Is it even an issue to pipe sRear LFE back into the mix? I'm probably missing something here, right? That is to say, even if you cut off low Hz to rear channel(s), just kick up the front bass with the E.Q., right?
    8. Assuming that to even be an issue, then the phase of the rear-channels would become an issue needing dealing with, no?
    9. According to the the below graphic portraying the DSP implemented for the speaker system as aforementiioned, am I totally out to lunch?
    10. Given the aforementioned speaker system, what would be the best Hz to cut-off the the cheesy rear-speakers that I'm using.
    http://img216.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=64316_kxdefault_123_445lo.JPG

    P.S. Since I couldn 't figure out how to get the above image posted, :annoyed: :mad: :w00t: :rolleyes:
    that's going to have to do for now.

    :duh:
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2008
  2. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    1. What does advanced options in the DSP context menu configure? - When 'on' anytime you add a plugin, a 'translate plugin' window pops up - I never use that - so, thats all I can say with any certainty.
    2. toggle option in KX Miixer appears to be wholly useless when using the k1lt ProFx effect/plugin, i.e., even so the front channel is plugged into the rear-output port of my CT4780, speaker test garners sound emminating from the appropriate and discrete rear speakers (despite testing front speakers). -
      yeah, the swap F<>R it seems to only have an effect when EPILOG is used. It was my understanding that all that switch does, is swap the front and rear between EPILOG and the actual physical output jacks.

      Note: for me, speaker test 'locks up' all devices in kX to indicate levels - so it is strictly an 'audio' test, you cant test with 'PEAK' plugin.
      edit: some of my confusion with the speaker test probably stems from me not being consistent with plugging my front speakers into the REAR output of the card - as my A2, has no.little quality difference between front and rear codecs...
      So, my best guess is that the speaker test is sending adio to the physical outputs as labeled on the card at all times and bypasses the DSP completely. /edit
      Otherwise, its kinda weird for me (it doesnt always do what I expect), so, i never use it to test anything. I use a physical input or a kX WAVE x/x in winamp instead.
    3. the k1lt ProFx effect/plugin needs to be manually configured to swap front and rear channels? - Yes, this is correct for me as well
    4. When using k1lt ProFX effect/plugin the f(L/fR) & s(L/R) outputs of Surrounder outputs are swapped by default, i.e., Surrounder f is inherently Surrounder s (and either cross-wiring, or configureing k1lt ProFx effect/plugin Out 0/1 for Rear Out - Out 3/4 configured as Analog Front - will accomplish the same result)? - I dont understand this question..

    5. How do I implement Surrounder LFE output so as to utilize the active 3rd order cross-over at 250Hz in the Monsoon flat-panel w/sub-woofer speaker system (MM-700) that are implemented as my front channel(s) speakers and are plugged into the rear-port of my CT4780?
      You can not use the LFE output - the CT4780 only has FRONT and REAR physical outputs. Well, you could send center/LFE in leu of the REAR for 3.1 (with discrtet center and LFE) or 2.1 (no discrete center but with LFE)
      Otherwise you can only do 4.0. (only 2 physical outputs, unless you get a SPDIF>Analog convertor and use the digital out - assuming the CT4780 has one ??)
      You could also add a hardware cross over. ??
     
  3. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    The "Toggle Swap Front and Rear option" is currently only used with epilog. Although other plugins can read/write this parameter (and thus use it if they want to), they are not notified when the parameter changes, which makes it difficult for other plugins to use.

    Swapping can be done manually in the DSP by using either the cross-wiring method, or in the case in ProFX:kxlt, using the plugin's GUI.

    No swapping is done in Surrounder (the swapping is done in epilog).
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2008
  4. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    Thanx for the replies.

    I believe my cornfusion has been straightened out somewhat.

    O.k., then, given the folloiwing from "Surrounder Expliained":

    So I'm gathering that if I don't implement "use Sub-Woofer Output" in Surrounder I'd lose the LFE signal off of the FxBus. Moreover, given my 4.0 speaker setup, wiring the Center/LFE outputs from Surrounder to the k1lt ProFX plugin-in/effect Out 5/6 inputs would be pointless (because the output for those signals are hardwired physically to the SPDIF jack - which I'm not using).

    From the "Surrounder Explained" threaad, I'm understainding that in 4.1 mode, the Surrounder config for VCenterA slider controls how much of the Center signal is mixed to the f(L/R) channels, and as such the Center output from Surrounder would be null. This would essentially leave only the Surrounder LFE output signal unaccounted for.

    To implement LFE from Surrounder in a 4.0 speaker setup, I could mix Surrounder LFE output to the f(L/R) channels utilizing xSumm (and wiring Surrounder LFE output signal to mono_in and fL/fR Surrounder outputs to in_L/in_R of xSumm). OR, I could just implement 5.1 speaker mode in Surrounder, and then wire Surrounder Center and LFE output signals to a mono-mix plug-in and the mono-mix output to the mono_in of xSumm.

    If I wire the DSP that way, then there's no cause for concern whatseover about any LFE signal being on the sL/R Surrounder ouitputs.

    If I'm understainding things correctly, the only quexion remaining in my mind is what establishes the LFE output on FXBus9? Does Surrounder "Use Sub-Woofer" config have any influence on that? I guess I'm curious what the frequency bandwidth on FxBus9 is, i.e., Surrounder in_LFE input. Does the "Use Sub-Woofer bass-redirection" perform frequency splitting, or is it effectively a bandpass filter on the in_LFE input? Because if it IS the latter, then I don't want to use bass-redirection at all in that would result in some signal loss of a small window in the LFE bandwidth. In that case, I should just imiplement "Use Subwoofer", but wire it to the front speakers as I explained previously.
     
  5. Max M.

    Max M. h/h member-shmember

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    not exactly. if "use Sub-Woofer Output" is off then the LFE signal is mixed by surrounder into front channels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2008
  6. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    Found a link to Dolby Labs explaining LFE.

    http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/38_LFE.pdf

    This intimates that LFE would only be present on the FxBus predicated on the presence of some AC-x signal. Even so, the LFE signal's spectrum width is essentially between approximately 80-160Hz (nor does the presence of an LFE signal preclude signal spectrum below 160Hz on any or all other channels).

    Therefore, it would seem that if Surrounder "sub-woofer output" is implemented, then any "live" LFE signal on FxBus9 would be processed by Surrounder. Subsequently, if "bass-redirection" is implemented, intuitively it would seem that Surrounder inherently implements a cross-over (or frequency splitter) plugin-in whereby all frequncies below the "bass-redirection" threshold are downmixed onto the Surrounder LFE output from f(L/R), s(L/R) & Center channels. The net result of Surrounder LFE spectrum width is at least 80Hz to specified "bass-redirection" threshold, albeit, the signal spectrum between 160-80Hz is inherently 10db greater than the signal on L/R(f/s) & Center channels in accordance to Dolby standards.

    Originallly I was going to implement downmix plug-in as input to Surrounder, but once I realized what was going on I said: "NO." (and have implemented Surrounder 5.1 - Movie Mode), and implemented post-Surrounder the mono-mix and xSumm as I previously talked about.

    I see in the Fx Router that "Wave AC-3 Passthru" is implemented on FxBus11 & FxBus12 and these feed Surrounder in_e & in_s (which makes total sense based on AC-3 specs), i.e., AC-3 completely replaces the right analog audio signal waveform - it does not simply recode the right analog audio to carry the AC-3 data. What I find astonishing, is that it utilizes the rear channel Center signal for L/R spatial separartion (as oppossed to Front Cente)r

    The only question I have remaining at this time: what differentiates implementation of "wave AC-3 passthru" signals on FxBus11 & 12 as opposed to the AC-3 signals on the FxBus as defined in Kx Router? That is: I see "wave AC-3 passthru" as FxBus11 & 12 (sendA, sendB respectively), while AC-3 "3-D Right" is 11, 0 (sendA, sendB respectively), and AC-3 "3-D Surround Center" is 12, 0 (sendA, sendB respectively). Is the difference attributable to Dolby encoded media, e.g., DVD, CD, etc, (AC-3), or Dobley encoded WAV files?

    FWIW, this is the DSP I've configured thus-far:

    http://img203.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=41171_4_0_bass_redirect_122_545lo.jpg



    (what's up with posting images?)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2008
  7. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Oops, I need to fix my diagram, it only reflects the .1 modes (i.e. "Use Subwoofer Output" enabled).
     
  8. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    I think the AC3-passthru stuff is irrelevant as far as DSP routing goes, as it bypasses the DSP. I think that maybe (this is just a guess) that the reference to FxBus 11/12 is related to the way it used to be implemented (using AC3-passthru plugins, etc), but again this is just a guess (I cannot really test anything as it does not work on my 10k1 card).
     
  9. Max M.

    Max M. h/h member-shmember

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    >Is the difference attributable to Dolby encoded media, e.g., DVD, CD, etc, (AC-3), or Dobley encoded WAV files?

    No, it's just about "decoding"/"passing-through" - e.g. "AC3-passthru" channels are for (obviously) AC3 pass-thru only (e.g. they transfer raw digital data - not audio signals)
    And "non-pass-thru" AC3 channels are for any audio produced by kX's built-in AC3 decoder (when decoding is enabled).

    Regarding "LFE" and "Redirection" frequencies: Well, this is Dolby's stuff. kX's surrounder is a minimalistic multipurpose tool and it's not advertized to follow any 3rd party standards or whatever. Particulary it was not indended to provide "LF of Bass-Redirection" = "Dolby's LFE"
    Actually, i would recommend you to use a crossover if you need more accurate split.
     
  10. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    It seems Surrounder+ has a bug which effects the way LFE input is used (when "Use Subwoofer Output is disabled"). So depending on the state of the bug, it might not be used at all (thus the problem with my diagram).
     
  11. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    Roger that.

    Max M said:

    Lives (10k1 based cards) has following features under kX (today):

    Decoding of ac3 from software player - yes
    Decoding of ac3 from spdif input - no
    Passing ac3 from software player to spdif-out - no
    Passing ac3 from spdif-in to spdif-out - yes

    Audigy X (10k2 based cards):
    Decoding of ac3 from software player - yes
    Decoding of ac3 from spdif input - yes
    Passing ac3 from software player to spdif-out - yes
    Passing ac3 from spdif-in to spdif-out - yes
    ----
    (although some users reported they can't get "Passing ac3 from software player to spdif-out" to work properly)
    I see that in the Mixer Master, there's a AC-3 passthrough mode toggle that ranges from OFF, to SPDIF-0 through 2. What do those settings entail?

    Also, I've read that the CD-SPDIF cable is not required if digital CD=Audio is enabled in device manager for the player. Yes?

    Max M said:
    Regarding "LFE" and "Redirection" frequencies: Well, this is Dolby's stuff. kX's surrounder is a minimalistic multipurpose tool and it's not advertized to follow any 3rd party standards or whatever. Particulary it was not indended to provide "LF of Bass-Redirection" = "Dolby's LFE"
    Actually, i would recommend you to use a crossover if you need more accurate split.
    Yeah. Roger that.

    I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably could do away with Surrounder entirely, and either pan or otherwise mix what I want directly to Out 0/1, 2,3 of the K1lt ProFx effect/plug-in. I'm going to think about that for a bit.
     
  12. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    It is to specify which SPDIF output the AC3 signal is passed to. The digital output (on the rear of the card) on many models has 3 SPDIF outputs (4 pin mini-jack), and there also is the headers on some card models that also gives you access to the additional SPDIF outputs.

    Right, digital audio extraction can be used instead of the cable.
     
  13. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    One thing first (and right off of the top):

    I use 950 words when 5-25 would do well.

    Next: thank you for your reply.

    Finally:

    I see the problem.

    My speaker config:

    2' 7" f(L/R) - distance betwwen MM700 11w 4"x8" diplanar dipole-radiating planar magnetic speakers

    4' 7" R(f - s) - distance between MM700 satellite & Labtec LCS-150
    4 8" L(l - s) - distance between MM700 satellite & Labtec LCS-150
    7" - distance between LCS-150 speakers.
    3" (LFE - F/R speaker-plane) - MM700 22w 5.25" cone (active 3rd order @ 250Hz) - undernearth a desk and aimed horizontal instead of vertical -1.

    I know nothing concerning the Labtec speakers that I'm using as rear speakers, but the MM700 advertises dispersion time to -20 Db being <0.25ms (0.1ms is blink). Those LCS-150's have dimensions of 6"x3"x4". When one considers the Bose sound system, it should be obvious that there's not a whole lot of bass coming out of those speakers; there is something though.

    Even so the LCS-150's have a "bass boost" button on the controller-speaker, there's no way they can have the frequency response as the MM700 system). Hence, my interest to trim the lower end of the spectrum from the rear-channel. I fail to see how this can be accomplished given ther iTRAM available.

    I said that I see the problem. Aside from the arguably less then ideal speaker placement, the problem lies entirely in that the fuzz bass seems "clipped", i.e., its not as "shaggy" as I expect. I've just test-driven the aforementioned config with Satriani's "Joe Satriani" about 3x now. I don't know where the problem lies in that regard (either my anticipation doesn't match the artist's rendering, or I'm out to lunch).

    The other issue is that there's a worldwide shortage of iTRAMS!!! Freak-out, man! So I subsituted Surrounder with Surrounder+ (20, 40, 1924 vs. 23, 39, 1924) - bloody F'g Hell - and saved something but not much.

    Arrrrrggggggh!

    re: iTram:

    http://www.driverheaven.net/general-discussion/100678-itram-explained-you.html

    re: xTRAM

    http://www.driverheaven.net/effects-dsp/75600-xtram-memory-plugins.html

    As far as "bugs", well, then, I do NOT know what to tell you. This time next year could prove a different story.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2008
  14. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure that there is a question in there, but... :)

    Reverb and Chorus use quite a bit of iTram (which is limited to start with), so if you do not need one of them (or both) then get rid of it from your config... Your bigger issue here is GPR usage... Get rid of any plugins that you really do not need..., and you might consider using a different EQ, as the 10BandEQ uses a lot of GPR's (maybe try the UFX EQP5 instead).

    xTRAM can be increased in kX Settings (Setup Buffer -> Tank Memory Size).

    Are your rear speakers giving you problems? i.e. Are you getting distortion or something? If not, then I probably wouldn't worry about it, but if it is, then you could use a highpass filter to limit the lower frequencies (i.e. UFX EQP1, or EQ Highpass, etc)

    As for the Surrounder bug, you will not have to wait for next kX release to get the updated version. Also, the workaround for the sub mode bug is to just set the surround mode first, and then set the speaker mode (i.e. anytime you change the surround mode, re-select the speaker mode after doing so). Also, this bug only effects input from lfe_in, so it would not effect stereo only audio from CD's/MP3's etc.
     
  15. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    Roger that.

    So the AC-3 mode selection in Miixer Master selects the destination output? So which one's which? Just bear with me here, in that in WxMan1 parlance, any manual is referred to as "the rule-book".

    All sources suggest that the OEM (Dell) CT4780 is a Creative 5.1 sound-card and in accordance to The Creative 5.1 rule-book it is stipulated that 5.1 compliant sound cards afford users the following priveleges:

    1. decodes AC-3 to 5.1 channels or pass-through compressed Dolby Digital PCM SPDIF stream to external decoder.
    2. bass redirection: bass output to subwoofer for small satellite spearker systems.
    3. upmixes mono or stereo sources to 5.1 channels
    It possesses:

    1. one line-level analog Line input via stereo jack on rear bracket
    2. one mono Mic analog input via stereo jack on rear bracket
    3. CD_IN line-level analog input via 4-pin Molex connector on card
    4. AUX_in line-level analog input via 4-pin Molex connector on card
    5. TAD line-level analog input via 4-pin Molex connector on card
    6. CD_SPDIF digital input via 2-pin Molex connector on card (sample rates either: 44.1 or 48 kHz)
    7. Analog/Digital OUT: 4-pole 3.5mm minijack (on rear bracket):
      1. Analog: Center, Subwoofer
      2. Digital: Frt, Rr, Ctr, Sub SPDIF digital
    8. Analog line-outs: 1, 2, 3
    9. Stereo headphone (32 Ohm) support on Front Line-Out
    10. D-Sub MIDI interface (doubles as no-joy stick)
    11. AUD_EXT 2x20 pin on-board header
    Roger, copy that 'bout "Reverb" & "Chorus" effects/plug-ins. I going to have to dig deep into the rule-book to figure out what I need from the rear speaker set, and then get some speakers that actually play by the rules, and then try to the whole system do what I want ('stead of relying on Surround(+)). That last way is the total WRONG way of doing ANYTHING.

    Roger, copy xTRAM, iTram. I'm stuck with iTRAM (work within the rules - that one's akin to the oxygen habit; can't be bent)

    DId some in-depth research to the LCS-150 (Labtec Space Saver series) and found out they eat grubs (infested with maggots). Advertised spectral band = 80Hz to 16kHz. I'm not going to dispute that 6"x4"x3" (HxWxD) speakers can produce 80Hz (Bose speakers), but they're seriously compromised in their fidelity if they're given any bass whatsoever.

    LCS-150 is seriously deficient for my taste. Until I put out the cash to upgrade, I'm going to have to finger it out where the cutoff is on those speakers.

    That issue is distinctly different than the one I started out with: LFE bass-redirection.

    I remember back in '82, when I was a grub (maggot), I couldn't figure out why the tech guy that maintained the geophysical seismic computer mainframes that I operated, why anybody in their right mind would try to synthesize music (instead of just playing it on an instrument).

    I'm telling you this: I thought the guy was a fool and engaged in wasting so many of his heartbeats (only time would tell).

    :hmm:
     
  16. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    BTW, FWIW, the company both of us worked for went bankrupt, FORTAN, COBOL & interpretive Business BASIC exectuting on multi-user interactive Unix O/S hardware platforms have gone the way of the dinosaur; its all MS Windows, GUI and class based OOP.

    At my heyday (as previously mentioned), C++, VB, and Java came out (aloing with SQL) and countless other multi-medai technology.

    :duh:

    I've been picking it up over the last 12 months at the local junior college. SO, by this time next year, perhaps I may actually know enough to comprehend that the "microcode" isn't ASSEMBLER (which is what it looks like to me right now).

    The main thing is that I have crappy rear speakers; I need to tighten up their input significantly so as to work within their rules.

    FWIW, I had my 44w PC system sounding absolutely incredible (it was cooking so well that I HAD to make adjustments to my Sony STR-1070x - meaning I had to figure out sound pressure levels). SO I figured out my rear delay was 2x the room depth, but the rear dB was 2x what it should be when considering the reflection off the back walls from the front speakers.

    Wow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2008
  17. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    It is hard to say, as AFAIK the CT4780 is not a 5.1 model, so the 3rd SPDIF would probably only be available on the header. In any case, with kX it doesn't really matter since AC3 passthru is not supported on 10K1 models.
     
  18. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    Duno what to tell you in that regard.

    AFAIK, the CT4780 implements on the 4-pole 3.5mm mini-jack on rear bracket:

    Center & Sub-woofer​
    Front, Rear, Center & Sub-woofer SPDIF outputs​
    The CT4760 4-pole 3.5 mm mini-jack on the other hand garners:

    Center & Sub-woofer​
    I did some in-depth research into this question and I ascertained that the CT4760 surround-speaker systems (whether 4.1 or 4.0), have front/rear analog & digital-surround input-jacks (requiriing the analog F/R oututs).

    The CT4780 is different in that if the card configured to DOO, ALL output can be obtained on the 4 pole 3.5mm mini-jack - without use of the analog F/R 3-pole mini-jacks whatsoever.

    My problem in that I have a 2.1+2 surround speaker system (the rear speakers being LCS-150). So my interest was in cut-off frequency for the rear channel. I think I have that figured fairly well: speaker test works good.

    Can you recommend some speaker that may be ancient, but worth $10/ea. (plus shipping) on eBay?

    I understand that a sow's ear can NOT be made into a silk-purse, but still, man. There has GOT to be a whole hell of a lot of crap out there that's better than what I'm using.

    :hmm:
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2008
  19. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I do not know where you got your info (unfortunately, detailed, model specific info is hard to come by these days for some of these older cards), but it does not *seem* accurate (but I could be wrong, of course).

    Again, Live! models are 4.0 cards, and as such would not have analog Center/Subwoofer outputs.

    What you describe here is a typical Live! 5.1 card. AFAIK, the CT4780 is not like this. It does not have analog Center/Sub... As for the digital outputs (via the digital out jack), I suppose it is possible, but it seems unlikely. The only reliable info (specific to the CT4780) that I could find is from the Dell website, but it does not give detailed info about the digital out jack: https://support.dell.com/support/edocs/acc/9624P/En/connect.htm

    4.0 speaker systems are (uhm :)) 4.0, and as such the analog F/R is all that is needed, so I am not sure what you mean. Also, most early 4.1 speaker systems did not have a discreet subwoofer channel (sub was derived from the other channels via a built in crossover), so again, analog F/R would be all that is needed for 4.1, when using such speaker systems.

    However, provided that you have some external DAC, the digital output could be used for whatever you choose, so it could be possible to gain extra channels that way (depending on whether the card allows the use of both the analog and digital outputs at the same time).

    Also, when using AC3 compression, you can get 6 channels (compressed) from a single SPDIF connection, so that is another way you could get more channels than the card technically supports (but only with AC3 content, and only when connected to an external decoder).

    I cannot recommend anything off-hand, but your best bet is probably to just get another 2.1 system (with built in crossover) for the rears, or just get a 4.1 system (again, with built in crossover, so that the speaker system does it's own bass management (maybe something like the old Cambridge Soundworks FPS systems)).
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2008
  20. WxMan1

    WxMan1 Active Member

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    The thing is, I have a "yellow" jack, so your link is probably less pertainant to:

    Sound Blaster Live! Sound Card (SB0200, after Oct. 15, 2002)


    than the Sound Blaster Live! Sound Card (CT4780, before Oct. 15, 2002)

    I stand by my statement.

    :duh:

     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2008

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