DH Editorial: "Unsupported and bitter"

Discussion in 'Reviews & Articles Discussion' started by HardwareHeaven, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Eman Resu

    Eman Resu Blues man

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    You people are concentrating on the gaming side and forgetting about all the workstation business (maya, blender, and such), and the fact that the linux desktop environment is moving towards OGL accelerated graphics, which doesn't work in Ati drivers. And the people out there using linux is bigger than you may think, and often these are the people who are asked about what card to buy. Guess which one will the recommend.
     
  2. Netrat33

    Netrat33 New Member

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    Then I guess you should be complaining about there professional FireGl cards and not the x1800 series which are GAMING cards

    :rolleyes:
     
  3. Kombatant

    Kombatant Active Member

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    The X1000 series of cards for both Desktops and Laptops is comprised of more than the X1800 cards you know :rolleyes:
     
  4. Netrat33

    Netrat33 New Member

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    ok..*sigh* x1300, x1600....there all gaming cards. Just not high end.

    Better? :rolleyes:
     
  5. Kombatant

    Kombatant Active Member

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    If better means you invalidating your own argument, yup, that's definitely better.
     
  6. Joovilhar

    Joovilhar New Member

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    I came here from The Inquirer. It's official - you're famous. ;)

    I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. If ATi's product does not do what you want it to do, don't buy it. It's really simple! If NVidia is the only manufacturer that supports the OS of your choice, then you're going to be buying an NVidia card. Banging your head against the wall doesn't serve your needs. If I were you, I'd eBay the ATi and buy an NVidia.

    To be honest, I'm not a Linux fan - I've used it, but I consider it too immature and unstable for my needs. Instead, on an x86 platform, I would go for either Solaris 10 x86 or FreeBSD. Both have been around for longer than Linux (Solaris has been constantly refined since 1982), and the developers are a bit more strict about what goes in them. Guess what? NVidia supports both of these OSes, besides Linux. They don't even try to hide it - you'll see Solaris x86 and FreeBSD drivers on the same page as Windows and Linux! That's what I call vendor support.

    Whining at ATi for not supporting your OS of choice will not change anything. ATi will respond when they see their market share being punished because nobody wants to buy their cards. If ATi cannot respond, they will go out of business - that is the way of things.
     
  7. mi1stormilst.co

    mi1stormilst.co New Member

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    I think 5 months is a long time to wait, I also think 2D support in LINUX is the least you should be able to expect. Having said that, ATI as a company that needs to and should set priorities ... really only 5% of their driver development resources should go towards LINUX. I know that I will ruffle some feathers but the user base is so small it will really never impact their core target market. Unfortunatly I am still waiting for a full version of the VIDEO (AVIVO) tool. So yeah it looks like ATI does need to step up here )-:

    PS: Also complaing about the resolution support is just plain silly. The FLAT PANEL technology is so horrible it doesn't work right even when the drivers support them. Being limited to 1 native resolution, low color depth, potential dead pixels, and short product life is totally unacceptable.
     
  8. brutusmaximus

    brutusmaximus New Member

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    Actually I think it does change things, quite a few aspects of this industry are based on public persception. this article is nothing new, however rather than uneducated forum rantings from people barely able of stringing two words together, Pete has put it very eloquently onto a website that ATI take very seriously. OS support shows that nvidia have the staff capability and ability to get drivers out the door for any OS which people use. Windows XP? sure no problem. Linux, sure no problem. Mac OS? sure no problem - almost all new high end macs are nvidia based. What about ATI? it seems they couldnt care less about Mac or Linux or any other non windows platform. is this important? well maybe its not losing them masses of money but they are losing face and they are damaging their reputation. To be No1, you have to commit, you have to deliver and you have to be better than everyone else. Only Nvidia right now fulfill that.

    What about this interview a long time ago on Driverheaven with the ATI CEO Dave Orton? http://www.driverheaven.net/dhinterviews/daveorton/

    Allan: What about Linux driver development? This market is expanding each year, are there any plans to increase driver updates or support for this market? How important to you feel the Linux market is to ATI?

    Dave: Linux is about 3-6% of the current desktops in the world. As such, a while back, we introduced Linux support under the CATALYST umbrella. That means a steady and consistent release cycle. In fact, once we get going with the Linux postings (very shortly), we will be updating our Linux driver every two months. This shows that we are very committed and serious about supporting the Linux community.



    Was he lying ? I doubt it and im sure he had the best of intentions, however I dont think they are capable of delivering. And that is concerning.
     
  9. brutusmaximus

    brutusmaximus New Member

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    That is simply a ridiculous and ill founded statement. ATI's and Nvidia's drivers support all the major panels in windows frequently without even a monitor inf - for these companies to not support such popular technology would be suicidal.

    The point Pete makes is 100% accurate -- ATI's linux drivers have serious issues with any widescreen resolution. and im not talking about 3d gaming either, just simple 2D.
     
  10. Netrat33

    Netrat33 New Member

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    Actually yes they do more support for Macs being the number 2 OS (Number 2 in popularity not in quality). But even here, Mac's still aren't a gaming system.
     
  11. jcox

    jcox New Member

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    ATI lost my business because of poor drivers

    As the IT technician in the University I work at, I get to spec new PCs
    for our computer labs. We've just put in a new workshop and I went
    for nVIDIA specifically because of this issue. There are 45 seats in
    the lab with at least 5 more PCs to come so assuming ~$500 per
    card that's $25,000 ATI lost because I'm not willing to be stuck with
    a dud Linux box in future.

    Maybe that'll make ATI sit up and notice...

    PS This purchasing decision was entirely my own and in no way
    reflects the general policy of my employer.
     
  12. bug77

    bug77 New Member

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    But they don't care about things like this as long as they can sign a deal with Dell and sell 500.000 crappy X1300 cards, no one will ever ask for any drivers besides what they get on CD with the computer. And it's not really ATi's fault the market is like this...
     
  13. Netrat33

    Netrat33 New Member

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    May I ask what type of video card your lab is using and for what?
     
  14. jcox

    jcox New Member

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    But they will care if places like Munich and Korea go through with their
    Linux migration plans. A whole city represents a big chunk of purchasing
    power. OK, in the scheme of things my lab doesn't show on their radar
    but at least its evidence that the ATI on linux snafu affects strategic IT investment.
    What happens when Vista comes along and corporations face the prospect of a
    massive hardware upgrade or to jump ship? What's quality Linux support worth
    to them then?
     
  15. Joovilhar

    Joovilhar New Member

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    Well, I don't know about Dell, but Sun is already shipping its workstations with NVidia cards. Given that said workstations are certified for Solaris, SuSE and Red Hat Linux - plus Windows 64-bit edition, I guess it's not surprising that NVidia is the only game in town.

    Given the excitement the industry has for running rock-solid Solaris apps on cheap and cheerful x86 hardware, you can rest assured that Sun will sell more than half a million of these workstations.

    As has already been said, for the increasing number of government (and public) projects that are obliged to use open source (which will mean Linux for the most part), ATi is effectively ruling itself out. If ATi holds its course, it will find that 5 years down the road, its percentage of Linux users will still be around 5% (or maybe less), while NVidia's may be far higher.

    This is good news for NVidia, as it means it will be able to command market share where ATi cannot compete due to a lack of driver support. But it will be bad news for ATi, who will find to its cost that Linux upgrade cycles are a lot slower than Windows ones - and all those potential customers it could have had are now happily using NVidia for the next 10+ years.

    I expect a large exodus to Linux/Solaris/FreeBSD soon, as Windows Vista is turning a lot of people off. Combined with the need for massive and expensive hardware upgrades, a loss of control over their own investment and BS policies (like requiring a new OS licence if you change your motherboard), many companies may just decide that a non-Windows OS offers better value for money at the end of the day. Many more people will just stick with XP beyond its end of life date. Hell, I know people who are still using Windows 98 and NT 4.00...
     
  16. madmatty

    madmatty *****side

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    Before they can worry about linux support there has to be a linux that can establish itself as THE linux. There needs to be one distrobution that is distinctively linux that both ati and nvidia can support 100%. Lindows is probably the closest environment for this goal as it sells it sef as he complete linux desktop envonment that can rivel windows. With windows everyone has the same base instalation so that drivers can be implemented 100% properly which isnt true if everyone decided to migrate to what ever linux distrobution takes there fansy.

    Vista is deffinatly going to make people think about what they want in an os before installing the insanely bloated desktop that is vista (well the x86 beta is insanely huge) and it doesnt even offer that much over XP bar a new UI which although looks prettier is no faster and just beggs for yet another system upgrade to cope with its requirments. The os is supposed to be just an interface, not a resource stealing hog thats takes all the power away from a new machine before we launch our apps and games that really need that power :/

    All that said, linux is in no shape to take over from where xp leaves off so users are not likely to change sides. It has very little support and probably the most important aspect is the games. Unless youre fully IT literate linux isnt even a concideration. and i guess this is what ATI see's too.
     
  17. jcox

    jcox New Member

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    We mostly needed to support Maya and OpenGL across Mac and PC
    (which means Windows now and Linux in the near future). Another consideration
    was to accommodate Apple Final Cut Studio which at the time we spec'd this
    up self-selected nvidia because it looked like Motion would only run hardware accellerated
    with pixel shaders under OS X.4 + GeForce. Other areas support games design which obviously locks us into XP but since we can get bulk discounts on PCs to
    one spec they got nvidia too.

    The main point is that I have to think where we'll be in 5 years time -- these PCs
    aren't like home games machines you can update every 12-18 months. I have to
    factor in as much flexibility as possible which means upgrade paths _and_
    migration paths. OK, ATI caught up in Linux support since we started the
    lab project but they still don't do anything like SLI. Doubling up the old GPUs
    so we only have to buy half the number of replacement gfx cards is a major
    saving that we can't aford to waste so SLI support on LInux is a must have for us. We also won't be switching to Vista.
    Ever. If at all possible.

    If Macrodobe ever port Flash/Director/Photoshop to Linux I'll be immediately
    relegating XP to a legacy OS and right now nvidia looks like the better bet.
     
  18. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    I would still have to say their x1900 series looks pretty damn good its just ugly, hot, and loud.I don't have linux but I feel bad for u that do. I guess Nv is the way to go for you guys for a while.
     
  19. Calson

    Calson New Member

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    This is not about user base, it's about perception. Sure, there may not be all that many Linux gamers compared to windows gamers, but that is not the point. When a company decides to migrate their 20,000 pc's to linux, all they will hear is that ATI doesn't support linux. They don't want to get into the details of what is or isn't supported. Therefore, those 20,000 pc's will have nVidia cards in them. That is a lot of lost sales for ATI. And, since most companies have about a 3 year replacement cycle, that is 20,000 lost sales every 3 years, that will be very hard to get back, because companies don't change their configurations just for kicks..
     
  20. Netrat33

    Netrat33 New Member

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    Once again I'm asking, what video card are you suggesting? Not brand, the video card.
     

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