Eugene Gavrilov - Eax Support

Discussion in '3-D Audio' started by roadrunner900, Feb 20, 2004.

?

how important is EAX support

  1. 1. not important

    29 vote(s)
    12.4%
  2. 2. optional

    34 vote(s)
    14.6%
  3. 3. MUST HAVE

    170 vote(s)
    73.0%
  1. kelston

    kelston Active Member

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    I'm sure there is, it's just not close to the same. I have EAX off in America's Army for the Revo 7.1 Sensaura libraries. One of the most obvious differences is on the Pipeline map, which revolves around attacking or defending an oil refinery. With the Aud 2 EAX on, I can actually hear oil running through the pipes. No matter how high (before it reaches the point of causing hearing damage since I use headphones) I turn the volume with EAX off, I don't hear it. That's really big.

    I think the biggest feature is EAX based on the fact that it's the largest selling point of the chip. Creative isn't pushing the chip onto hi-fi audio people, they're pushing environmental audio on people who play games. The Aud 2 suffers from the same thing a stock Revo did for audio. There is just subpar buffers, subpar opamps and hurts whatever chip each has. M-Audio changed the opamps to something better, i'm waiting to hope Creative one day realizes this too.
     
  2. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    well i have to say this
    EAX support is not up to Eugene, it is up to Creative releasing the EAX presets and such to Eugene so he can add it to kX - i guess if you really want it you can start an unofficial petition
     
  3. Foolou

    Foolou New Member

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    EAX is simply a step in the wrong direction.

    We need some sort of product that supports real 3D-echo-effects derived from the displayed 3D-world. A combination of what you see and hear.
    The vortex chips looked really promising for stuff like that .. too bad they got bought by creative.

    Right now EAX might sound cool, but it's the wrong technology for 3D-games, even creative knows that.
     
  4. kelston

    kelston Active Member

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    You're stuck with EAX anyway, plain and simple.

    No matter what Creative does to buy out and bankrupt their competitors, from Aureal to Sensaura to those Vortex chips, no one seems to care enough to take action against them. Apparently Microsoft doing this was determined to be anti-competitive practices but what Creative does is perfectly good.
     
  5. DMNXS

    DMNXS Member

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    Unless sme major soundcard manufacturer like Terratec brings out their own technology (which I highly doubt).
    I agree, but EAX3.0/4.0 is indeed nice-sounding, only thing is imho that the 10kx chips have little power compared to 'real' DSPs (even EMUs soundcards DSP is almost useless, and the effects don't even work at 88.2 and 96 kHz!).
     
  6. Plasmafusion

    Plasmafusion New Member

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    EAX is very important !
     
  7. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    DMNXS - the EMU card's DSP IS the 10k2 architecture
     
  8. Ray Adams

    Ray Adams New Member

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    Yeah, you right, but I think , proffesional musician doesn't use Creative Products :). Personaly, a few years ago, I've used Yamaha sound cards for music, and I can say. NO soundfont banks (even bigged in size than 100Mb) can give better MIDI sound than Yamaha! :).
    But now I need Sound Card for Games and for music listening (mp3 and so on) while working on my software projects. EAX is one of the important part of Creative products, thats why I bought it. I hope that, author of Kx project will be able ot implement EAX support in next releases!
     
  9. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    EAX is dependant on CL releasing the EAX specs to Eugene

    no amount of pleading/demanding whatever, here at least, will change that
     
  10. kelston

    kelston Active Member

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    And we all know that will never happen since CL is working hard at being a monopoly of game audio specifications.

    I wonder why Microsoft buying out rivals is a monopoly but CL doing it isn't.
     
  11. Eugene Gavrilov

    Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator

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    it also depends on:
    1. availability of 3-rd party reverberation engine (the ones bundled with the driver are not -equal- to Creative one)
    2. people willing to -develop- EAX
    3. time
    4. time
    (5. time?...)

    E.
     
  12. Samir

    Samir kX Lover

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    >> availability of 3-rd party reverberation engine (the ones bundled with the driver are not -equal- to Creative one)

    Just curios, but does it HAVE TO be equal to creative's reverb engine??? If we knew reverb presets, actually the way they should sound, it would be possible to write custom reverb effect & link it with EAX API so that presets do change inside games.

    I imagine EAX as one big, games-dedicated, DSP setup, with many "mono EAX Reverb" effects, all of them tweakable in realtime by EAX API...

    Maybe it would be possible to implement something VERY simple, EAX1 simulation, for start...
     
  13. kelston

    kelston Active Member

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    To try to do that would take an army of testers and a big team of programmers. You'd basically be reverse engineering sound rather than code to try and simulate EAX using a reverb utility. It'd be easier to come up with your own EAX alternative, try to sell it to games developers and soundchip manufacturers, and try to have it work in current games than to try and simulate full EAX.
     
  14. Samir

    Samir kX Lover

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    EAX aternative? Why not? It only has to be EAX compatibile @ API level... ;) We should call it "kEAX" or "EAkX"... :D :D :D
     
  15. Eugene Gavrilov

    Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator

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    not exactly. the present driver code already has some kernel-level EAX support, however it is not active, since there's no reverb engine. yes, implementing EAX1 shouldn't be too difficult. if you are interested, let me know. probably, discussing this online (ICQ/MSN) might be a better idea.
     
  16. DMNXS

    DMNXS Member

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    Yoou mean like the EMU 1812!? Didn't know that :) . (I did know the APS were 10kx)
     
  17. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    yes, but only for the DSP effects (as i understand) the rest of the routing is handled by other chip, for true 24/96
     
  18. adi111p

    adi111p Sound Quality Freak

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    I would say that developping EAX support in kX drivers is in a way pointless...

    1) EAX is not a real 3D audio! (A3D was but ... thanks to Creative not anymore)
    2) Even Audigy2 is not suited for games, because almost all games use 44.1KHz samplerate sounds, which will produce SRC IMD, so 10kx cards are useless here (even for D3D)

    Even for musicians this soundcard is useless, the DSP that we can use is working only at 16bit/48KHz, so no improvement since SBLive! cards.

    3) I don't think Creative will improve EAX, since it doesn't seem to even try to use technology bought from Aureal or Sensaura. Audigy2 is a confirmation of this politics, because it is just an SBLive! but with 24/96 capability - but only in the special condition that you do not do anything with the DSP. This is what I leaned in school that is called "Bad Design", and this card is full of it.

    What I would suggest to Eugene is to try to get anything useful from Creative (Like A3D specs, EAX specs) and try to use A3D technology for 3D audio (by replacing D3D or EAX specs with A3D implementation) and this would create the needed stuff for gamers :)

    For musicians I would suggest Eugene to drop trying to improve support 10kx DSP's and find a similar DSP but what works on real 96KHz/24bit internally, and the only solution for this now seems to be VIA's Envy24HT used in MAudio Revo soundcard, but before this I would suggest to find out if it is really a true 96/24DSP (if not stick to 10kx).

    BTW Audigy2 has 64 hw buffers while Vortex2 in '98 had 128 hw buffers and 96 hw 3d buffers - that is a lot at that time, I think this combined with A3D scared the shit out of Creative
     

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